I spend a lot of time thinking about the future, about the challenges and the opportunities facing the next generation — those millennials about whom everyone has a theory and whose attention everybody wants. They are, after all, the next big generation, equalling the boomers at about eighty million with us Xers weighing in at a paltry fifty million. But as the father of three of these so-called millennials, I’m not so much interested in them as a demographic, trying to understand their habits and tastes so I can figure out what to sell them and how to package it. And I certainly worry about their entry into cyberspace, sharing information about themselves with Zuckerberg’s data mining organization before they reach adulthood. But above all, I wonder whether or not millennials are up for the big social and political challenge of their age and whether or not us Xers are able to lead the charge. At the moment I’m not so hopeful in light of this report from Public Citizen entitled Mission Creep-y, explaining how Google is becoming an ultra-powerful political force and continuing to expand its “information collection empire.” Just the first few lines of the introduction reads as follows:
“Google may possess more information about more people than any entity in the history of the world. Its business model and its ability to execute it demonstrate that it will continue to collect personal information about the public at a galloping pace. Meanwhile Google is becoming the most prolific political spender among corporations in the United States, while providing less transparency about its activities than many other of its politically active peers. Despite its mantra – “Don’t be evil” – Google’s ever- growing power calls for keeping a close eye on the company, just as it is keeping a close eye on us.”
I do think the challenge of this half of this century is whether or not we’re going to allow the unfettered power of a new oligarchy to flourish. Plutocrats have risen before in American history, but what is unique this time is that the means by which we perceive we can combat unchecked power actually waters the seeds of that power itself. To illustrate what I mean, let’s go back to Occupy Wall Street. Remember Occupy? It was trending not that long ago. In my opinion, this series of protests was borne of anger and frustration with exactly the right problem — wealth consolidation. For more than a half century now, Americans have fostered both policy and business culture that has resulted in a tiny fraction of society holding the greatest percentage of wealth. Meanwhile, opportunity continues to shrink for everyone else — the 99% championed by OWS. Thus, the targets of Occupy were the financial industry and the government that failed first to regulate and then to punish those who practiced predatory and fraudulent schemes that led to near economic collapse five years ago. This particular rage aimed at those particular institutions was a reasonable start, but the narrative written by OWS actually contains an ironic twist I doubt many of its founders or followers ever considered before, during, or since those days in Zuccotti Park.
If we’re going to be honest, OWS produced nothing tangible to address the fundamental problem of wealth consolidation in the U.S. No serious grassroots political force was founded, no OWS-backed candidates were elected to office, no dialogue has even really changed much as a result of those protests. Instead, what OWS produced was a great deal of theater. And that’s normal. Protests always produce some measure of theater that doesn’t translate into progress, which doesn’t mean protests don’t serve a purpose. The irony, however, with this particular spectacle in the age of social media, this free show comprised of shared photos, videos, tweets, and updates about kids tussling with city police, was that it could not exist without putting money into the pockets of the wealthiest one percent of the one percent. For every one of us who watched a video of Officer Bologna pepper spray a young woman and thought, “that’s wrong” and then went about our day, the Internet billionaires made money. The top search result of that video alone has just under a million views on YouTube, and there are I don’t know how many related videos representing how many thousands of views. But suffice to say that long after the goals of Occupy have been swept up with the detritus from the park, Silicon Valley’s elite few continue to make money from the from the free media circus performed in the name of restoring power to the many. This Catch-22 scenario applies to just about any cause, any protest, any movement around the world.
I wrote broadly on this theme after supposed co-founder of OWS, now Google employee (yep), Justine Tunney called for a libertarian’s coup that would install Google chairman Eric Schmidt as chief executive of America. I really don’t think it’s alarmist to say that we are spawning a new generation of Vanderbilts with a social agenda that goes beyond mere greed, and that in the end, we won’t even get a railroad out of the deal. But what is truly different about this era’s breed of Robber Baron is that this time he owns the medium through which we naively imagine we can protect our civil liberties against his caprice and callousness. With every tweet, status update, an even blog post just like this one, we are feeding the very monster we think we’re fighting. This is the real conundrum of our times and for the next generation to solve: How do we speak truth to power when that power is made stronger by every word we say?
David, You are spot on. I have been raising these issues with friends and family for years and been regularly attacked as being anti-technology, anti-progressive, etc. I was the first person I knew to abandon Facebook and other social media 4 years ago. Many took offense and thought I was some sort of crazy social leper. Being the sociable person I am, this decision only added to peoples’ confusion over my “privacy concerns.”
As a songwriter, I am finally starting to get through to colleagues who realize the dead end hobby they will likely look forward to without the aid of major music industry players. It’s great to share our music with the world and “get it out there.” However, the possibility of earning a modest living wage with our intellectual property is quickly becoming the pipe dream of all pipe dreams.
I’ve heard all of the reasons cited for Google and Facebook’s revolutionary-relevance, especially following the Arab Spring uprisings and OWS.
Clearly, we are financing our oppressor in his efforts to amass more power over us (financial and political), all the while we protest his power. We make his powers stronger every moment we rent his real estate under the false perception that we own it for free. We walk eagerly to slaughter: robbing ourselves of our own time, privacy, money, relationships…. We download media for free thinking we’ve scored and no one will notice, all the while the reservoir of worthy creations to buy or steal continues to dwindle due to lack of funding. Time is money and it takes time to produce great things worthy of distribution. Eventually that well will run dry to the extent that there won’t be anything left to take. Just like we’re doing to the planet — pillage until there’s nothing left. The dream is over.
Thanks very much for reading and for commenting. Here’s hoping there are solutions. I try to remain optimistic (most of the time).
@David – “Meanwhile, opportunity continues to shrink for everyone else”
Wealth is not a finite resource. That is a major flaw with any argument in regards to capitalism. Yes, great wealth grants greater influence, but in a free market society, that opportunity is open to anyone. Wealth is also very subjective. Someone with no debt and a modest income could be considered “wealthy”.
@Well said – “Eventually that well will run dry to the extent that there won’t be anything left to take.”
No, no it won’t… Just like wealth, art is not a finite resource. If you are making music to make money, then not only are you part of your own problem, but YOU are to blame for making yourself obsolete. We live in an age of opportunity. Where art, both good and bad, exists regardless of money. Regardless of sales. There are BILLIONS of artists, none of which need to turn a profit to exist. Creating things both beautiful and profound. It is your arrogance, and that of people like David that keeps you from seeing the truth.
I AM a musician. I have written and produced a bunch of songs. I have performed those songs for people, and they have in fact purchased those songs. The more exposure I get. The more people hear my music. Some of that translates into sales. Most translates into more exposure. I just watched a video where it stated that songwriters were being screwed by streaming services because their work was not being valued… This is coming from the ASCAP newsletter. The same avenue that led me here. You people should be ashamed to call yourselves artists. All of you. Art is not about a profit margin. If anything these technologies have made art easier to produce. But for you, this isn’t about art. It is about the bottom line.
You have the audacity to say that art will fade unless it is profitable? How can you possibly be so out of touch with the reality of the world we live in. I can, at this moment, find 100’s if not THOUSANDS of musicians, artists, filmmakers… With as much talent as any in the “industry”. Some trying to turn a profit, some just making art to make art. Art is not going anywhere. You and your ilk may be. But true art, um, no, sorry, that is alive and well.
Honestly, I am baffled. Do you make music? Can you point me in the direction of your work? I am curious to hear it. I honestly have no doubt it is technically proficient, but I want to see if there is any soul to it. Any heart or emotion. I respect all artists, even if I do not like their work. GIVING a piece of yourself to the world is a noble endeavor, something that is not going to go away just because your song was streamed more than purchased.
angryvillager–
You’re playing semantics with the word “wealth” and missing a much more important point. The problem with capitalism is that it creates capitalists who will, by their very nature, need to exploit labor. The extent to which they are allowed to exploit labor, and the degree to which labor is empowered to defend itself, is a matter for public policy. It took many decades from the time of the 20th-century robber barons to create institutions that protect labor and increase their share of wealth from their work. Many trends, however, are going the other direction, partly because of this populist lie being told by new magnates who are openly and consistently hostile to the rights of labor and who are by no sane definition job creators. So, yeah, opportunities are shrinking for everyone else. The hollowing middle class isn’t really a matter of debate at this point, is it?
What does that have to do with creating art?
You are correct business has always attempted to reap the most profit for the least amount of investment. There was a time when the worker was nothing more than an expendable asset, something to be used and discarded as there were always more where that came from.
And then times changed. Skill grew, and the demand for those skills increased the leverage held by the worker. And through that leverage, laws were created to ensure protection for the common worker as well as the people managing them.
Are you suggesting artists are being exploited? Well, of course they are, by the very industry you seem hell bent on preserving. It is the monetization of art that has decimated an artists ability to survive more than all other factors. The industry devalued content as soon as it started mass producing media with little or no care for its actual artistic value.
What is the difference between a Taylor Swift song and one from Katy Perry? Justin Timberlake or Drake? Content? Feel? Or is it simply a matter of percentage points and market share?
See, I am not bashing those artists music. I like a catchy tune as much as the next guy. But their process is on auto pilot when it comes to releasing “art”. Planned, scheduled, packaged… Every last detail, spoon fed to the public. And as soon as the views slow down, the song stops trending… Here comes another spoonful.
Who’s fault is that? The consumer? Some random nerd in his basement torrenting “Blurred Lines”?
A commodity can be artistic, and art can in fact be a commodity, but expecting a create work to always be both is naive, and as I said arrogant. Value of art is subjective. It does not have a set monetary value simply because of creation.
When people say streaming services are not paying enough to artists, who do they mean? Taylor Swift? U2? David Newhoff? Did you draw people to the service? Was it your work? If so should U2 give you a cut of the traffic revenues? Should you kick in for someone else?
Streaming is exposure, and the value of the content is dispersed to ALL of the content. So yeah, you deserve a percentage, but that is not the same cut as you should expect to get by doing it yourself. And if you have the resources, more power to you.
I don’t mean to be rude, but you seem to have entirely missed the point of the post above. To paraphrase Lanier, the creative industries are just canaries in the coal mine of a larger economic story. That larger story is the point of this particular post, but don’t take my word for it. As I said to Anonymous somewhere on one of these threads, I am neither the only person to equate SV with robber barons nor the most prominent voice by far to do so. It’s not that I don’t have responses to everything you say here, but they would be summaries of more than two years worth of posts on this blog. Suffice to say, if I’m talking about economic value, I try to separate that from artistic value. The former is measurable and can be clearly defined for the purposes of measurement, the latter is far more subjective. And by the same token, artistic value should not be discussed with regard to economics, in my opinion. On a side note, Streaming services really should never pay me since I play guitar like an unhealthy ape and can’t sing on key to save my life.
“How do we speak truth to power when that power is made stronger by every word we say?”
Is that the ultimate point of this particular post?
Because you need to consider that we too have “power”. It is granted to us by the very entities you fear. We too can leverage social media and the connections it brings. We too can profit from data analysis, recognizing the trends and adapting to the market, more rapidly and efficiently than ever before.
Yes, “they” profit from our exposure, but as of yet have not barred anyone else from doing the same. We live in an age where data IS controlled, but it is also shared freely, and that is where the true power lies, for all of us.
Art is not simply defined by a group of suits sitting around a black table. It is defined by public interest. Large companies are capitalizing on this fact, constantly updating their product to capture the waning attention of the masses.
Someone is profiting from everything we produce online, but what stops that someone from being you or I? As I said, wealth is not finite. So Google or Spotify or Apple turning our data into profit does not exclude us from doing the same.
It is a beast, no doubt. But not a beast we can not control.
If you believe this is a beast that can be controlled without either a) everyone simultaneously abandoning the web to show whose boss or b) public policy that keeps these corporations in check or busts them up as needed, then I think you’ve drunk the Kool-Aid. People are not more empowered today than they were 20-30 years ago, they just think they are, and this is partly because the companies that own the web keep telling them they’re more empowered. Google, Spotify, and Apple are designed to turn your data into profit without sharing and without your permission, so yes, it does exclude you.
David, please don’t be so pessimistic. That is how they are “winning”. You have a following. And someone somewhere is tracking that. Tracking what you post, how many people respond, etc. Separate that fact from your OWN ability to thrive. YOU also have access to that information. You too can use it to an advantage. The connections, the information, all of it. No one can stop you from doing so.
FB is what? Some innovative technology that everyone needs to survive? Nope. It is just a collection of users. Like MySpace was before it, and like whatever comes next will be in the future. It does not control what people post, but it does manipulate what they see.
And you are right, as long as people don’t care about that fact, it will continue to profit from the data of its users. So what do we do? We use that connection to our own advantage. We use their technology to facilitate our exposure.
We gave them permission to use our data, whether we are aware of it or not, and yes that IS a problem. Which is why I am a proponent of people sharing less freely with FB and more freely with one another.
We are not on opposite sides of this issue, I truly think we simply have different ideas as to the solution.
I’m not a pessimist, I’m a cynic and a curmudgeon. Though I’m sure we are on the same side in principle, I think you may be underestimating the significance of what’s happening right now. Silicon Valley is not responsible for the decimation of the middle class; that really began IMO when the Boomers started to make money. And you’re right that it doesn’t matter if we’re talking about Facebook or some other social media app that doesn’t exist yet. The larger system is designed to diminish the value of work. Left unchecked, many if not all industry could very easily look like an Amazon fulfillment center, which is basically the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory. I don’t think it’s pessimistic to say that the solution is that I can beat the data masters at the data game anymore than I would believe I’ll be the House at the Craps table.
angryvillager [AV] says -“It is the monetization of art that has decimated an artists ability to survive more than all other factors.”
..I’m sorry, but that has to be the dumbest statement I’ve ever heard! How does being able to pay the bills, let alone for the creation of art itself ‘decimated artists ability to survive’???
AV- ” Streaming is exposure, and the value of the content is dispersed to ALL of the content. So yeah, you deserve a percentage, but that is not the same cut as you should expect to get by doing it yourself. ”
umm… streaming is a wallstreet financial instrument, whose only reason for existence is to enrich its owners.. Spotify, Pandora, etc. aren’t in the music business, they are exploiting it…leeching money, and spending not a single dime on creation or promotion.
If you want to give away your art, good for you… Meanwhile, I need to eat as im not a trustfund baby.
Then get a regular job that pays a salary and offers stability of income. If paying your bills is the primary reason for creating content, you are in the wrong business. I don’t get paid simply because I know how to write code. I get paid because I work for a company that values my skill.
Streaming existed before it was profitable LOL. Pandora was created as a music discovery tool. Spotify took that idea to another level. You still have the mentality that simply because you create something, it is automatically worth something. It is not. No one is stopping you from profiting from your work. But just like everyone else, you have to earn that profit and if you are small enough to be affected by the people who don’t want to “own” a copy of your work, you aren’t big enough to realistically be expecting content creating to pay your bills or put food on your table…
“I get paid for a company that values my skill.” THAT is the point of the post, my friend, because the idea that companies value skills is what is being demolished bit by bit in multiple industries. Talk to anyone who’s making the same money he was in 1992 and ask how that’s going. Talk to someone doing the work of two and getting paid for one. Your suggestion “get a job,” is where you’re missing the big picture.
“Get a regular job”, not “get a job”. I am in no way suggesting we should not value our individual skills, quite the contrary. But our valuation has to be backed up with production. I do not get paid because I THINK I am good, I get paid because someone else thinks that I am…
Cab drivers have a skill that people value, and this is being threatened by uber and soon by self driving cars. No doubt when unions object tech Utopians will gripe that they’re “impeding progress.” Oh, and there will be computers who can code better than people one day…
At the very least “get a real job” leads to limited art created by either elites or sellouts,and as lanier points out young or people with few attachments. The premier example of diy, ani difranco, has worked her ass off and says now that piracy is screwing her over. And of course, THERE IS MONEY BEING MADE OFF OF CONTENT. it’s just not going to the creators.,
(BTW, I was appalled when Neil Young came out saying piracy is nbd. Does he realize that because piracy sites are ad driven he’s now singing for Pepsi?”
A lot of streaming is still not making a profit, and they’re trying to make one by further devaluing content. Which is why the whole “get a new business model” is so offensive. Uber can only succeed by deregulating the industry. Spotify can’t make a profit even when they pay artists pennies, and tech partisans have the gall to say that Taylor Swift doesn’t know how business works! Tech is becoming a Ponzi scheme.
It’s truly Orwell time. Tech cheerleaders complain about the most limited monopoly possible and then shill for companies with a stranglehold on their industries.
So cab drivers are threatened by competition and that is a bad thing? Just because cab drivers “need to eat”? So we should all be held hostage to their business model/practices in order to ensure some random cabby get’s a paycheck? Really? There are already technologies that have forced me to adapt, things that simplify the process of development, that allow more and more people access behind the curtain. Are you suggesting I should stick to my guns and rail against progress? How exactly does that server the end user? Sorry, no. I adapt so that the experience can be enhanced, stifling innovation serves no one.
“At the very least “get a real job” leads to limited art created by either elites or sellouts,and as lanier points out young or people with few attachments.”
Um, that is one opinion. I tend to think it leads to art being created by people who find value in the act of creation more than they do in profit from that creation.
I really do believe you are your own worst enemy when it comes to success.
thousands of people out of work (more if you count truck drivers – millions if the same applies to other labor) SHOULD concern you. It should concern everybody.
We need to get rid of the idea that technological progress is necessarily social progress. Technology that leads to economic injustice is not a benefit to anyone except the elites. As it stands, big tech has been anti union, anti regulation and in general anti common sense.
Technology is not an element, nor is it a weather phenomenon. It is not something that people cannot control. Even in the natural world there are evolutionary dead ends. And there’s a big difference between “Adapting” to technology and telling someone that they’ve been completely replaced.
You tell the Teamsters and other unions that if their jobs are absorbed by Google that, well, tough luck, should have gone into a STEM field. That should be fun.
“Um, that is one opinion. I tend to think it leads to art being created by people who find value in the act of creation more than they do in profit from that creation.”
Seriously, that is the most disingenuous argument I’ve ever heard. Dickens didn’t put any less of his heart into his work because he was paid for it than Tolstoy did because he didn’t need the money.
I will bet you anything you like that Uber is not about progress or innovation. Some Uber drivers have already begun to see the flaws with that company and its payouts and practices. Meanwhile, the company itself holds no liability for anything its drivers do.
Progress is about the future. Most web businesses have nothing to do with the future. They’re designed to make five people a zillion dollars as fast as possible and then disappear, leaving behind nothing but damage for everyone else. I don’t say this, experts who really know Silicon Valley say this. Uber and Airbnb are contributing to several negative market effects right now, making their owners fortunes, and they probably won’t be around in a couple of years.
So what are you suggesting? Halt progress because some people make more money than others? I did not say that Uber, or Tumblr, or Instagram, or Whatevr are saints ushering in a golden age of peace and harmony. They are niche businesses that will or won’t carve out a piece of the proverbial pie. What they are not doing is reaching into the pockets of someone else to make their “zillion dollars”. If there was no demand for these services, these services would not exist. Countless startups with stupid names, lots of VC money and little or no existing market come and go every year. Like anything else, people will latch on to the things that work best for them. Be it Uber, yellow cabs, or general public transportation. It is easy to pick at the flaws and ignore the innovation. But as I said, doing so does not serve the consumer, and it ultimately does change the market.
@Monkey
“thousands of people out of work (more if you count truck drivers – millions if the same applies to other labor) SHOULD concern you. It should concern everybody.”
It does concern me LOL, but stifling progress to maintain the status quo is not a solution. Never has been and never will be. Do you know why? Because someone else will always be moving forward. Stubborn union leaders and inept management killed the steel industry in America just as much as cheaper, higher quality foreign alternatives did.
“As it stands, big tech has been anti union, anti regulation and in general anti common sense.”
You should not speak of things like common sense and in the same post where you suggest that industry should be kept in check by the skills the workforce are willing to learn. Someone will always want to advance. You can not stop people from trying to innovate. And those who do not keep up, will be left behind. As it should be.
“Seriously, that is the most disingenuous argument I’ve ever heard. Dickens didn’t put any less of his heart into his work because he was paid for it than Tolstoy did because he didn’t need the money.”
I never suggested someone who is doing this for profit is less of an artist. What I suggested was that removing the profit motive from the equation, while knowing the effort that goes into producing a creative work, suggests something about the people who do so. Not saying they are more talented, or “better” than anyone else. But they sure as hell aren’t any less so as you and others would like to believe. I would put my corn flakes up against someone who is trying to make a livings cornflakes any day of the week. But I would never presume to think my work is automatically more “artistic” because I had no expectation of profit.
And where is the innovation with Uber? It seems to be completely lacking in innovation.
Where actually is the innovation in streaming? I was sat in the car with a flat battery on Sunday evening with someone, and played the Siwan Album to my passenger, via the iPod, whilst we waited for a breakdown service to arrive. The passenger was stunned by the album, but of course not have the CD the entire history of each song was absent the experience:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Siwan-Jon-Balke/dp/B001PS0EKW
and pretty much, once you’ve stepped away from the popular hits, you get that with much music. With streaming each song ripped from its context, downloading is almost the same too.
I am no advocate for Uber. I don’t know if it is better or worse than grabbing a taxi. That is neither here nor there in this argument. Someone thinks it is better, lest it would not be growing as it has been. And should that someone decide it is not working, then something else will take its place.
Streaming, like uber, is about convenience, not context. The people who use streaming services want convenient access to media. The people who buy a full album want the album experience. Making the assumption that these two groups are one and the same(or should be) does not alter the reality of their differences.
It feels like you are trying to pre-define how people listen to music, or watch movies. The market has shown that this is not what they want. At least not in general. Is that a bad thing? Um, it can be, but it is not necessarily so.
We can’t control how the average person consumes media. Even if we control how we present our work(limit to a full album), that doesn’t mean everyone will do the same. The best we can do is present the work as we intend it to be, and hope that people are interested enough in the creation to experience it that way.
Should people always get what they want? Cheap clothing is as a result of sweatshops in Bangladesh and other places, cheap roses is a result of land being taken out of food production. Cheap food is a result of land exploitation resulting in ever increasing pesticide and nitrate pollution. Happy meals results in obesity in children. In the end the alternative is seen as a fad only for the wealthy.
Wikipedia is convenient but the knowledge gained there is 4th rate. Back in my youth we had streaming music, we called it muzak, and that is what spotify, pandora, youtube and the rest are pretty much. Suppliers of familiar tunes, that become background noise.
You are free to make all of those assumptions, but none of the things you mentioned are solely responsible for the negative effects you have associated with them. They are not even the root cause of the things you mention. Short of telling people what to eat, wear, and how to listen to music you can control any of those things. I mean I guess you could limit supply, which would increase demand and allow for greater price control. But who decides who gets to make music at that point? Or open a shop? Make t-shirts?
I doubt you or I would be qualified to make that decision for the general public.
“You should not speak of things like common sense and in the same post where you suggest that industry should be kept in check by the skills the workforce are willing to learn. Someone will always want to advance. You can not stop people from trying to innovate. And those who do not keep up, will be left behind. As it should be.”
Yep, technological progress is always for the best. Worked out for the cotton gin.
“I never suggested someone who is doing this for profit is less of an artist. What I suggested was that removing the profit motive from the equation, while knowing the effort that goes into producing a creative work, suggests something about the people who do so.”
And who are “the people who do so?” People who can afford to. Your “regular job” solution ignore the fact that people’s “regular jobs” are becoming less and less adequate for basic survival. People are being told they have to work more hours for less money everywhere, except of course at the top. So if I want to create, I have to put up with my “regular job” eating more and more into the time when I can actually create.
“Yep, technological progress is always for the best. Worked out for the cotton gin.”
It worked out for the cotton farmers. Not sure what point you were trying to make with this sentence.
“So if I want to create, I have to put up with my “regular job” eating more and more into the time when I can actually create.”
Of course you do. You, like everyone else makes sacrifices for the things the want out of life. You don’t think I would rather spend my days writing and recording music? Or sitting on a beach? Just because some people have moved beyond the need to do things the “have to” in order to survive does not everyone is that lucky.
You might know those “cotton farmers” by a different name: plantation owners. So, yeah, it didn’t work out for a lot of people.
The point about “making sacrifices” is that the sacrifice is by no means evenly distributed.
I’m sure some tech people trulyl believe thata they are ushering in a world where no one has to work and we can all do what we want. But right now it looks an awful lot like creating more and more inequality.
Look, David, if you would prefer I not comment on your posts any further, I completely understand. I will unsubscribe from your blog and leave you all to your thoughts. I am in no way trying to intrude just for the sake of argument. I defer to your rights as the curator.
theangryvilliager —
No. I hope you don’t take my rebuttals as code for asking you to stop commenting. If I sound impatient, it’s because I’m super busy today, and a lot of this is retreading familiar ground. Still, please do continue to comment if you like. I have no desire to host an agree-a-thon. And I don’t doubt that in another forum, we’d find more common ground in our perspectives. My point is that I think your view sounds limited to here and now and isn’t looking at a possible future in 5-10 years. And like I say, there are more experienced folks than I warning of exactly the same things.
What is so interesting about the previous healthy debate is you have been identified the “Great Digital Divide,” and of course like many divisions in society, some are happy where they are, and some are not! Here’s a conundrum I am sharing with you both. I have a provisional patent on an Enterprise Transaction Network, that functions like a personal information/user-generated content exchange that pays users a sliding percentage of the money collected from the use of their personal information/user-generated content, by 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th parties (like AdClick) using “Cookie/Reverse Cookie protocols.” It is indeed, a disruptive technology, which Silicon Valley and venture capitalists want to ‘innovate.” Note:- It disrupts THEIR MONOPOLY! That is why, in addition to me being a 25-year IT Infrastructure Engineer, who is African-American, none of the venture capitalists and companies I’ve contacted so far, have replied to my e-mails, expressed any interest, or desired to meet with me! So there you have it! Monopolistic behavior, dressed up in the clothes of any age, is monopolistic behavior, whether its Rockefeller , Gates, or Zuckerberg. As a side note, Solar power was invented and patented over 100 years ago, and guess who bought the technology and killed it? The patent is called “Virtual Privacy Suites”. I will probably croud-fund by the end of the year if I get no traction. Wish me luck, please, because I’m going to need a lot of it, and partners? I’m all ears! Great forum of civil debate and discussion here, by the way!
Kressman, thank you for reading and for sharing your personal perspective. That is indeed interesting, and I wish you luck though I personally only sorta understand engineering in principle. 🙂 On the patent side of this discussion, you may want to check out the work of CPIP at George Mason University. All the best! DN
Where would you store the data? Does the user have control over what they are monetizing in regards to their data? What are the incentives of data collection companies to use the protocol? Sounds like a very interesting project. I have thought a lot about ways in which the individual user could gain greater control over their digital presence. The biggest conundrum has been how to give them complete control over their information while still allowing them to leverage it via their social network in a secure manner.
I believe given the right system it would be possible to wean people off of the major data grabs that exist via Google, Apple, and Facebook. Though in reality, they primarily use that data to their own ends. The generic tracking and collection agencies, prevalent on pretty much every site we visit are a much bigger concern for me in the long run.
Good luck with your project.
angryvillager says “get a ‘real’ job”…
You know what? I HAVE A REAL JOB!!!
It just so happens that I’m being robbed blind…
I am not only a songwriter, but a painter and sculptor as well… guess what? I’m getting fucked every which way. And yes, I’ve done other jobs in the past too.. but those plants shut down, and I couldn’t physically work in that (or most) industry even if there was still job openings anymore anyhow..but that is neither here nor there, as that is just another strawman argument.
As for “innovation” (the most hollow buzzword of the decade).. to compare streaming to cab drivers: it’s like people are still hopping in the cab, ten at a time, but skipping out on the bill…then calling it “innovation”. Again, I am not against streaming as a technology.., I’m against the unsustainable business model currently employed by streaming services. add to that the outdated laws that say I have to do business with these bankrupt companies even if it’s not in my interest to do so. No other profession has their hand forced the way we do. No other profession gets soo much shit while being pissed on either..
Oddly Andrew Orlowski wrote an article on Uber and Streaming today in the theregister:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/11/17/uber_spotify_what_do_they_have_in_common/
@AudioNomics – REGULAR job. Get a REGULAR job… Being an artist is not a regular job, anymore than being a professional athlete or poker player is a “regular” job.
OK, please point me in the direction of your work. Because I am just not understanding what it is you expect and I need some context. Hell, I’ll even buy a CD, print, whatever. Because for the life of me I can not fathom what type of work you do, that produces enough revenue to be adversely affected by something like Spotify.
And if you are going to use an analogy, try to make it applicable to the conversation. To compare streaming to going from point A to point B. Streaming is like 10 people taking a bus and getting there all at once as opposed to 10 people waiting around for separate cabs, or for the same cab to make 10 trips. Sure the cab ride might be more comfortable and personal, but the bus gets the job done and is more convenient. They see more value in the destination than how they got there.
And who is forcing you to do anything? Your label? Distributor? Throw me a bone here…
I prefer to remain anonymous, as my mouth tends to get me into trouble. I have several charting songs (all played and sung by other artists, as I don’t perform)…but this isn’t about me or my music, but the future off ALL professional and aspiring pro creators of all the creative industries. I just happen to speak about music as that is my primary profession, but all other creative disciplines are in a similar position.
It seems the more popular [my] art is, the less I see as revenue. I don’t want “exposure” (which is an endless catch-22), I don’t see tour money, and nobody wears a t-shirt of the songwriter, they wear it of the star, if at all, not the person behind the curtain.
I don’t have a day-job, this is my day-job, but it’s getting impossible to live like this at these wages. And I’m not asking for a hand-out, I’m asking for fairness. Why that is so offensive to you is beyond me… the only way I can place your anger is than you are buying the message being sold to you by the very people that are robbing these industries blind (as so many are wanting their message to be true)
I am not trying to call you out. By no means was that ever my intent, I asked truly out of desire to understand what it was that YOU do. Nothing more.
The only thing I am not understanding is how exactly these services are “robbing” you. Because in reality, I am not against you getting paid, but I don’t think you are railing against the right “enemy”.
Streaming is nothing more than a way of transferring media. It is more or less equivalent to radio. If radio was on demand, archived, searchable and commercial free.
See, I get it. That type of access, does in fact make people less likely to buy music. But that has nothing to do with streaming, and everything to do with a consumers desire to not have their media tied to a particular technology. Who wants a CD collection cluttering their shelves? DVDs? Who wants to only be able to listen to the music they like when X device is charged?
No one. And the reality is, they don’t have to. You can rail against technology all you like, but Spotify is not your enemy. Any more than Napster was 15 years ago. Any more than CDs were 30 years ago. Or tapes 10 years before that. It is progress. And you may not like that word, you may not like the direction things are headed, but there is no amount of lobbying that is going to stop consumers from wanting what they want. And ultimately, the music industry is to blame just as much as anyone when it comes to what people expect.
I sympathize with you. I honestly do. But mainstream music as a product does not need true songwriters. Between marketers and producers, churning out rehash after rehash… Yeah, sorry, Spotify didn’t do that to you.
If something you wrote is on a streaming service. It is one of millions of pieces. And while it is possible to track how many people listened to that work, quantifying its value in a sea of others… Not so easy.
Yup, if a lot of artists removed their work Spotify would fade away. And the truth is there is nothing stopping any artist(unless they sign some exclusive rights deal) from setting up a streaming server and doing it themselves.
Most would not do that. Because the value in giving up some cash to streaming is in the fact that as part of X million works, they get a cut no matter why someone went to the service and heard their song.
When I said get a “regular” job. I did so, not with malice, but from a perspective of realism. No, no it is not going to get easier for people to JUST be songwriters, or painters or artists. Sorry, but that is just the way it is.
The history is interesting here. It was only when radio, movies, and recording technologies appeared that performers were able to become obscenely wealthy. Before that early 20th century era, most performers made a very meager living indeed, with a very few notable exceptions.
A ‘real’ job is hanging sheet rock, growing potatoes, or raising hogs. If every entertainer in NYC suddenly vanished overnight, there would be consternation, but the City would still function. If every garbage collector vanished, the City would face a health crisis in a couple of weeks. Everyone wants to strum a guitar and warble for a living, but not very many folks want to load up a garbage truck for eight or ten hours every day.
Too many so called ‘artists’ have an overblown opinion of their importance, and an arrogance about the value of their work. Civilization existed for countless millennia without a bevy of paid entertainers, but not without carpenters, masons, and farmers. The paid entertainer is simply not any part of what makes a civilization exist, or even prosper. Those that entertain for a living need to understand that, and give thanks that they are not working on a chicken ranch or slopping hogs for a living. Those ‘artists. need a healthy dose of humility, because they would not have existed a century or so ago, and would not exist today if the population didn’t have a lot of disposable income to spend on them and their talent.
I’m not saying that music has no real value, because it does indeed have value — just not survival value, or critical value. It has intellectual and spiritual values, and those are important, but those values do not feed, clothe, or shelter anyone.
There are many things performing artists can do to insure a fair income for themselves, and to protect their creative properties, which are both under unrelenting attack in the new digital paradigm. Whining, however, is not one of them. The corn farmer, exhausted after another 12 hour day of hard labor, views with wry amusement the tribulations and trials of the touring performer, and wishes he had that particular set of problems instead of his own.
Just for giggles what do you imagine the economic impact to NYC without the entertainment industry?
There would be no impact. Because for every artist who left, 10 more exist to take their place. That is simply a fact of life. We live in a time, when people who have art inside of them are generally free to express it. I think that has more impact on the marketability of an artist than anything else. We are simply not that rare or special anymore.
That has nothing to do with his point. No arts at all. How many real jobs does it take to man one Broadway show?
No one is suggesting there is no need for the arts. Or questioning what they contribute to society. But just as he said, there was a time when entertainment was not as big a business as it is now. Those artists made what they made, based on who they could interest in their work.
How do justify the expectation of profitability when it comes to art? I am not seeing how something can affect an artist who is successful enough to make a living in such a way as to make that no longer possible.
The amount of material that would need to be sold to replace my salary, for example, would put me in a tier of musician that was not reliant solely on sales to exist. And I by no means make some ridiculous amount of money. Hence my question to AudioNomics. WHO is really being affected by this service? Or is it just a cut into the bottom lines of big companies and really big artists?
Actually, Angry, that is what Michael was suggesting. It’s the old and very naive argument that being punk rocker is a hobby but being a sheet rocker is a real job. And since he specifically referenced NYC, suggesting the city could dump the arts as long as it keeps its trash collectors, the argument is even more transparently naive. You know how many carpenters work because of Broadway alone, how many restaurants stay open, hotels operate, cabbies, hot dog vendors, bartenders? Closing two theaters would probably have a measurable ripple effect. It’s simply idiotic to say we can drop one vital economic sector and think that it doesn’t effect many other economic sectors.
The “progress” you perceive is based on a bubble. Maybe you’re not old enough to remember Web 1.0 (I don’t know). Web 2.0 is in many ways a more sophisticated reboot of the same casino economics, but with advertising actually profitable and data mining becoming the real wealth generator. But it’s also a house of cards. The web industry is an exaggerated version of what was already wrong with American culture and economics; we stopped building things in favor of quarterly reports to shareholders. Traditional businesses are going to discover that if workforce wages don’t keep up with the cost of living, they won’t have any customers. And web companies are the same, only they move faster and are built on something utterly whimsical — our activity. Advertising isn’t worth shit when you have a weak middle class that can’t buy things. Then, the house of cards falls down. And the funny thing is that you think your coding job is secure. Unless you’re so valuable that you’re meeting with Sergy a couple times a week, I wouldn’t get too comfortable.
theangryvillager,
I agree so much. The more and more I think about it, the more I realize how much better the world would be if humanity was no longer inundated with this commercialized culture. I’ve never stopped to really think about all this, but now I realize that I’ve witnessed a friend’s entire life being ruined by World of Warcraft. Growing up, I’ve seen friend’s natural state of wonder sapped from them, people being turned into mindless masses beholden to the media machine.
I’m starting to view those who are live and breath this for-profit art as victims of a societal disease, one that saps their natural curiosity and humanity from them. A disease of which we are all to some extent suffering from. We’ve been living in a fantasy land produced by corporate conglomerates. Our very human desire for culture has been hijacked and commercialized so securely I’m not sure if it can ever be fixed.
WTF is mindless culture? You yourself seem to be wedded to some popular science series (‘Cosmos’) that was first broadcast 34 years ago. The content of the gold disc on the voyager probe was selected by a committee chaired by Sagan, it contains music by Chuck Berry, Mozart, Bach, Blind Willie Johnson, and various folk/ethnic songs and chants. Images of architecture, dancing, and people playing music. This was the stuff that Sagan chose to represent the Earth.
“You know how many carpenters work because of Broadway alone”
You aren’t talking about “Broadway”. Or Metallica? Or Taylor Swift. You are trying to make the implication that “random songwriter #1” is equivalent to Andrew Llyod Weber. They aren’t.
So while eliminating the culture industry from a city would have an impact, eliminating any one(or 10 or 100) of the local bands from the city would not change a darn thing.
And in the case of streaming services, etc. There are literally millions of “artists” putting out material. And while you may scoff at the notion of it being worthwhile, I can guarantee more people think of these creators as viable artists than don’t, and the more exposure they get, the less relevant mainstream music production will become. And you know what? That is a GOOD thing for music. Might be bad for the “industry”, but it is damn good for the listener and for the music culture as a whole.
“The web industry is an exaggerated version of what was already wrong with American culture and economics; we stopped building things in favor of quarterly reports to shareholders. ”
I am going to stop you right there. Do you work in the “web industry”? The social connection available via the web is key to just about everything happening in the world today. Discourse, culture sharing, exposure to art and music that would have never been possible before.
How many talented people do you know? People who are not “on Broadway” or rising up the charts? How many people who you KNOW are producing work that is just as, if not better than most of what the public is fed?
Are you honestly suggesting they are worse off as the connectivity of the internet becomes ubiquitous? That a world where that connection is instant and exposure to new things is more or less constant?
David I have been in this industry for nearly 16 years. 14 of that with my current company. I know full well how quickly things can turn and I also have zero fear of it happening. You know why? Because I am a professional with years and years of experience. I have learned the most important skill time and time again over the last decade and a half. How to adapt. When our primary technology started to be replaced by out of the box solutions. Solutions that didn’t really require true development. I learned those systems and used my advanced knowledge to improve our clients experience with the latest technologies. When the out of the box solution falls down? I use the plethora of skills I have acquired over the years to prop it back up.
Yup, I could have railed against the changes. Yup, I was fearful it would make me obsolete. And yes I know people who did not adapt who lost their jobs and had to find something else to do while they caught back up.
I am sorry but I still think that your own worst enemy is you.
Determine a fair price for work, make sure they pay. Move on and figure out how to adapt. That is your only course of action. None of this complaining about new technology is going to amount to anything. You know why? Because there is no money in it. No one is going to step backwards just so songwriters, the unseen “heroes” can get a few pennies on the dollar. The best you can hope for is compromise.
I’m sorry, angry, you still sound like the guy who says 1000 times zero is better than 100 times zero. Exposure of more artists is good in principle, but not in a shrinking market. It’s basic economics. If we say to musicians, we’re creating a way for 20,000 of you to be heard instead of 200 of you to be heard, but we’re dropping the value of music down to near zero, all that happens is we consumers enjoy this moment of abundance until it shrinks back to less than we had before. And exposure means exactly nothing to the artist if there isn’t something to be gained from that exposure other than more exposure.
“Discourse, culture sharing, exposure to art and music that would have never been possible before.” I don’t know, maybe you haven’t read much of this blog. I’m beyond cynical about the premise that much of that has been improved by the web. In fact, the notion that none of that has been improved is the thesis of this blog. People are less well informed, discourse is a shambles, and exposure to arts will be meaningless if we manage to destroy the arts in the process. The web was meant to be all the things you describe; its architects envisioned it that way. Then, it turned out billions upon billions could be made through ad service and data mining. Connectivity and culture? Not exactly.
I don’t know what the public is fed. I’ve usually had to go looking for it to find out. I still get recommendations from friends and stumble upon things the same way I always have.
I don’t doubt your professionalism, your skills, or your knowledge. I’m simply saying that you may be ignoring market trends that have nothing to do with your ability or willingness to adapt to change. And it may not apply to you personally; I have no idea what you do or for whom. But look at people who are removed from the market because their age and experience makes them “too costly” compared to someone younger with similar skills and less experience. That’s just one tiny example of a trend we see in multiple sectors that has nothing to do with adapting, unless you mean the more experienced professional should “adapt” to supporting his family on a starting salary. You may be so uniquely skilled that you’re immune, in which case, good for you. But that has nothing to do with overall trends in the market. Don’t take my word for it, though. As I say, there are real economists and experts saying the same thing.
‘A.V.’ – ” And in the case of streaming services, etc. There are literally millions of “artists” putting out material. And while you may scoff at the notion of it being worthwhile, I can guarantee more people think of these creators as viable artists than don’t, and the more exposure they get, the less relevant mainstream music production will become. ”
Ok, thanks for confirming my suspicions that you really don’t know what you are talking about , you are just repeating stuff you heard from people that have essentially been advertising this message for the last decade+ …
The reality is there have always been amateurs and aspiring musicians out there. and don’t get me wrong, I’m glad they have outlets… I was once one too… but I don’t confuse that with the reality that there is no more jobs in the industry than there wAs twenty years ago (actually, there’s half) and don’t confuse millions of songs out there with those same millions actually being listened to [by anyone].
Look at the actual stats: 90-some percent of ‘new releases’ sell less than 100 copies (most less than 5, which means even their own mother lied when she said she bought a copy), and get streamed with the same metric. These people are called hobbyists… and I can see it is confusing, as they are mixed onto the same platforms as the pros now, but if you actually look at the numbers, it is as if they aren’t there… YOU are perpetuating the myth that the internet is empowering these folk, I’m shining a light on the dim reality. (it’s always shitty to give good folk bad news, but don’t shoot the messenger).
And to pre-rebut your response, no I’m not attacking hobbyists or aspiring acts, I’m stating facts. It’s MUCH worse to start out today in these fields than it was before, LESS people are getting heard and making a living. There existed home recordings and such before the internet you just couldn’t count the amount…
@Audionomics – So by your standard a professional is someone who sells X amount? So no matter what the content, no matter what the artistic quality(all subjective BTW), if someone sells a certain amount of units that makes them a pro? Or, since we are talking about the loss of sales to streaming and other digital services. Are you suggesting that X amount of impressions(sales, listens, downloads(legal and illegal), THAT is the criteria by which you become a “professional” as opposed to a hobbyist?
So if you fall below that threshold do you suddenly stop being a pro? Talent, hard work, those things don’t make you a “pro”, just sales?
I think your problem is that you are confusing “artist” with “professional musician”. And when I say “confusing” I mean you are using the same criteria for both as the basis of your argument, when they really are two completely different things.
“It’s MUCH worse to start out today in these fields than it was before, LESS people are getting heard and making a living.”
A songwriter is not necessarily the same thing as an artist. Artists produce music for consumption(in most cases). Songwriters produce a product for use/sale. A lot of artists(professional and amateur) do not require the services of a songwriter. So if they sell 10 copies or 10000, while you may not consider the former a “professional”, they are still in fact artists. So while it is likely true that being a songwriter has become more difficult, that has nothing to do with how much easier it is to be an artist, regardless of exposure. Regardless of sales, downloads, whatever…
So no, I did not sell X amount of product last year. I do not make my living based on anything related to my music. In short I am not a “professional” musician by your standards. But I am an artist, no matter what label you would like to apply.
My point? Not everyone can be a “professional” anything. Athlete, musician, developer. And not everyone who tries will succeed. But the one thing they will have in common with actual “professionals” is that the value of their WORK, has, and will always, be determined by who is willing to pay to see or hear them do whatever it is they do.
So if the demand for YOUR work has diminished. There is nothing anyone can do about that, except for you. If your work is being used illegally. Same thing.
It is a catch-22. If you are able to remove your work. Sell it on your own. How do you get enough eyeballs on your stuff to make it worthwhile?
How does someone like Ms. Williams not have a bigger piece of her catalogs pie?
“it’s not technology, it is opportunistic scumbags using technology, along with consent decrees writting by a pre-itunes pre-internet saturation Congress. ”
What does that even mean? If you are ever so inclined, give me a real world, example, or link to one. Where a “professional” artists is being taken advantage of directly. Where actual theft is occurring. I see a lot of anger in what you are saying, what I want to see is the actual cause. I want to identify the real problem, not the perceived one.
A.V.- ” So by your standard a professional is someone who sells X amount? ”
Not “my” standard…but
a professional is someone who puts ‘artist’ or ‘musician’, etc. on their tax returns. ie, the majority of their income comes from working in a field…
That’s not to say someone who isn’t a professional artist has any more or less merit as far ability goes… but just because I fixed a leaky faucet once doesn’t make me a professional plumber…same with having music on Spotify…
and, I never said you were or weren’t an “artist”, you’re getting defensive about stuff in your own mind.
A.V. – ” So if the demand for YOUR work has diminished. There is nothing anyone can do about that, except for you…”
sigh… am I talking to the walls? Demand has NEVER BEEN HIGHER, the paychecks are what are shrinking.
A.V. – “It is a catch-22. If you are able to remove your work. Sell it on your own. How do you get enough eyeballs on your stuff to make it worthwhile?”
THAT is just it. in the USA, You Are NOT Allowed to Say NO TO NON-INTERACTIVE MUSIC STREAMING Websites… seriously dude, I’m not going to repeat myself 100x … I’m done, please do some research before lambasting others on things you are ignorant about.
“THAT is just it. in the USA, You Are NOT Allowed to Say NO TO NON-INTERACTIVE MUSIC STREAMING Websites… seriously dude, I’m not going to repeat myself 100x … I’m done, please do some research before lambasting others on things you are ignorant about.”
You are full of crap. Please show me the law that states you or I do not have the right to not distribute our music? You keep mentioning artists not having a choice. I am calling BS on the whole thing. I can and do in FACT control my own distribution. You are the one making baseless claims. Point me in the direction of EXACTLY what stops you from saying no. And I swear to you, if you tell me it is some nonsense with a record company or label, I am going to throw my monitor out the window because making crappy deals has nothing to do with a third party service who has contracted with the people who actually control your work and the money you receive. If you aren’t getting paid, take it up with them.
You are literally full of crap. All this time, all of your posts, a bunch of crap. What a waste.
You don’t have to post any text, just links. Link to the law that prohibits you from removing your work from streaming services. Please re-link to the “new your court ruling” that controls your destiny as well. I KNOW that BS was rebutted in another post. Unbelievable.
I can, right now. From this computer. Control just about every aspect of HOW my music is being sold. I can not stop people from stealing it. I can’t guarantee that no one is listening, but I could pull it from iTunes, Amazon, right now if I were so inclined. I am pretty sure it would be a pain in the butt, and pointless after so many years of availability.
Neither does higher maths, pure science, teaching, nor literacy, feed and cloth people. We existed for something like 15,000 years without much of any of that.
The corn farmer is making quite a bit more money than the artist, thanks to the High Fructose Corn Syrup we’re all addicted to… And my guess is that you’re not working 12 hour days of hard labor yourself….
You know who do work awfully hard? The people working in the Amazon warehouses.
The culture industry is about a hell of a lot more than rewarding artists. There is a whole network of shippers, shelf stockers, customer service people and others who owe their jobs to the culture industry.
But in more romantic/spiritual terms, I think of the loss of Tower Records. People loved that store. They had friendships with the clerks and trusted them to recommend new aritists. “People went on dates to Tower Records.
You can’t say the same about pirate sites.
Here in the UK spinadisc used to be pretty cool. All gone now
That angry villager guy is wonky. His arguments are daft. And he seems to have an awful lot invested in being right.
I am Jessica Williams, http://www.jessicawilliams.com . . . I’m 67, toured the world for 50 years (I’m a pianist) and made 76 CDs and LPs. Because of Spotify and Pandora and a host of other streaming services, my once-lucrative life of art and music has led me into poverty. I had to sell my piano for a few more months in my rental unit. i am sick but cannot afford care. My teeth hurt but I have no dental. I’ve lost 60 pounds because food is scarce. I am going to die, soon.
And I hate to tell the angry villager guy this, but he is going to die too. By solar standards, soon. And this is not a threat. It is a promise: no one on earth has ever escaped death. He will not be the first.
So stop fighting and telling everyone that if we do too well as artists, we’ll be less creative. A-hole! What insanity. I am not creating at all now thanks to this scheme of a select few to re-tool our lives. The oligarchy exists. The ultra-rich are among us, and YOU, angry villager guy, are in their sites. I don’t feel so alone now.
amen sister!
I really really wish you would write something in rebuttal to Amanda Palmer. In her introduction to the new cory Doctorow book (spoiler alert: creators should sell t shirts, tour and do kickstarters) she claims that the only artists who complain about free content “haven’t done new content in years.” Grrr…
Bless you.
Jessica, thank you for your comment. Thank you for even reading this blog. I wish there were something I could say or do that would help you personally. People reading these comments should realize that your story is not just what’s happening to artist (thought that should be enough), it’s what’s happening to everyone.
I hate to say this, but if you toured the world for 50 years, produced that much music, and now find yourself broke and in poor health, your problems go way deeper than services that have been around for less than 10 years. Services that have only in the past 4-5 years been anything but a blip on the radar of the music industry. Whatever led you to where you are was not caused by someones ability to catch something you created on Pandora…
I never said being successful made artists less creative. What I said, and I stand behind, is that if making money is your primary reason for creating non commercial music/art, they you are not only in the wrong business, but you are doing it wrong.
I will ignore your rambling about death, I as most people am more than aware of my own mortality, which has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
My god…
You can’t see how, if you are an older musician facing health problems, that any loss of income could be catastrophic.
Here’s a bit of simple math: this woman says she’s been a musician for fifty years, she’s 67 now. That means she started when she was a teenager. Music is her fucking life.
You claim that people who value the art more than profit make better art. But asking that people respect your art enough to pay for it IS VALUING IT. These people are not asking to be rich. They want to survive to make more art.
I am not going to tell someone who devoted their whole life to their craft that they shouldn’t worry about getting money from it, especially when others ARE MAKING MONEY OFF OF IT.Why is this so hard to understand? MegaUpload was not a fucking charity.
You claim that you’ve just being “realistic,” while At the sAme time you’ve consistently said that you see no need to pay for art. Saying “meh, this is reality” is disingenuous when you’re contributing to that reality.
And not to pounce, but your response to Jessica indicates that you may not understand medical insurance at all, which would not surprise me if you’ve been with one employer for 14 years and they cover any portion of your medical. To be indie, need medical insurance, and over sixty, is a friggin’ nightmare in this country. I’ve paid 100% of my medical premiums and expenses for my entire adult life, and it is a disastrous system in every market. To imply that this is any individual’s fault is both naive and callous.
@Monkey – “You can’t see how, if you are an older musician facing health problems, that any loss of income could be catastrophic.”
How exactly is that relevant? Streaming did not put her in that position. The choices she made in life put her in that position. Are you seriously suggesting her current situation where a loss of income that may or may no be attributed to streaming. I went to her youTube page. She is hands down one of the most talented musicians I have ever heard. She has played with, met, collaborated with, some of the greatest musicians of the last century. She is a Grammy nominated artist with countless accolades to her name. She also has 230 subscribers. So yeah her problem is streaming, and not the FACT that just like millions of other artists, she is relatively unknown from a marketing perspective. I mean good lord, do you not see the absurdity in that assessment?
“I am not going to tell someone who devoted their whole life to their craft that they shouldn’t worry about getting money from it, especially when others ARE MAKING MONEY OFF OF IT.”
Who? Who is making money from her work? With 230 subscribers on youTube. A dead link to a facebook page. An outdated website. Who exactly do you think is raking in the cash while she suffers? I don’t know how she could be so well respected and have so little. Honestly I have no clue. Poor management. No management, who knows. But to ignore all of those other factors in an attempt to bolster your position is absurd. You can no back up a single claim in regards to how she is being screwed by streaming, or any other service with numbers. Maybe she can, but that is not what she said. For god’s sake, if you want to help her, which seems ridiculous to be saying about such a master of the craft, that she would need the help of random people on a blog is crazy to me. But if you want to help her. Get her social media sites up to par. Promote her and her work on forums where she is probably already well known. And USE the internet to her advantage. jiminy Christmas. 50 years of hard living as a musician(at least that what she told the BBC) and streaming is why she isn’t raking in the cash… Sheesh
“To imply that this is any individual’s fault is both naive and callous.”
I did no such thing. What I said was that someone of her stature and talent has deeper issues than people listening for “free” on a streaming site, if she finds herself in such a dire position. Read my response to monkey.
Again. She is the exception, not the rule. I look at her and I think about someone like Buddy guy. And what he would have had to have done(or have happen to him) to end up in such a rough spot. It did not just happen that over night she was pushed into obscurity with no one marketing her work. You realize that she is a master. I am baffled to have interacted with her on any level, that is the respect I have for her talent. My assessment has nothing to do with her musicianship.
The reality is that as talented as she is. If you put her in the middle of a field somewhere remote and gave her a piano. Wouldn’t make a damn bit of difference what she played, it would still be lost to the wind.
You want to help musicians? Truly help them. Put this energy into promoting one another. Expanding peoples horizons.
And Jessica, your work is indeed brilliant, there is no denying your creative contribution to the world. It does not, however, change how technology does or does not impact the music world.
it’s not technology, it is opportunistic scumbags using technology, along with consent decrees writting by a pre-itunes pre-internet saturation Congress. And fucking pieces of shit CEO’s that arbitrarily decided to NOT EVEN PAY THOSE abysmal rates to pre-1972 songs! (instead they don’t pay them at all!)
Enough with this back and forth. Do you people want to work on solutions? Because I am all for it. Our agreement on what is causing the issue for artists in not necessary to work out real world solutions.
Angryvilager: I have no idea how many people are streaming her work or illegally downloading. I don’t really care. The point is that it is very clear how sites (both streaming and outright pirates) are making money through subscriptions or advertising while paying artists little or nothing.
Maybe there are deeper issues, but I’ve heard enough stories like hers to know that she is not unique.
I don’t usually bother with guys like angry villager. He’s a very angry villager, is he not? He implies that my life has somehow come undone by my own hand. I am personally familiar with the “blame the victim” game in rape cases, and this is a common retort to any expression of unfairness from any woman . . . but we’ll leave that alone because angry villager will glom onto it like a Boston Terrier and rip it to shreds. I’ll say this. He aptly names himself. he has little to no experience in the music business, and he’s a villager. And he’s angry. About what, we will never know.
I am a Peabody Grad. I am a Guggenheim Fellow. I have received the National Endowment four times. I receive the ASCAP Award every year (for the past 26 years) for outstanding achievement in my field. I haven’t smoked, or drank for 20 years. I NEVER did drugs, ever, despite rumors.
A few years ago I had a triple-lumbar fusion (yes, paid for by the dreaded Medicare) that made it impossible for me to tour, ride on jets, and do festivals. I am disabled. Yes. Horrible, huh? I am still Jessica, though. My marriage has lasted 26 years. (Please, AV, leave my husband out of this as he’s disabled too.) My work was my life and I continue to work hard. It’s just that NOW, I don’t get paid for it.
Anyone who knows me knows that I am not either mentally ill or compromised by a bad attitude. I am a winner and a fighter. I am just tired and a bit old. And so I won’t be posting rebuttals to AV anymore, as there are millions just like him. That’s why compassion and altruism and loving your neighbor are now all trite sentiments. He’s read Ayn Rand for sure. He should’ve listened to Coltrane play A LOVE SUPREME. But he wouldn’t “get it”.
I have met so many guys like AV in my life. He unhappy because he is angry and he is angry because he is unhappy. It shows up like a lantern through fog. But whatever the etiology of his anger, he’s not in charge of my life, and he’s just a little voice in the storm. My life and my work will stand or fall on its own merits. It is what I had to give and I gave it. I am not angry. I am mortified at the lawlessness and injustice of our present “system”, a system that allows decent, hard-working folks to go homeless, to go without dental care, and other needed forms of health care, a system that rewards unconscious, un-evolved, money-grubbing losers while ignoring the plight of their brothers and sisters. I have always been this way, AV. If it’s a failing, I fail.
You are awesome.
I have a question, thoughL your site says that you get no money from itunes downloads… why is that? The reason I ask was that I wanted to buy one of your albums from there but I don’t want to if you don’t receive anything from them.
Jessica, you haven’t failed, the System failed you (and all of us).
Congress failed you.
A single court in NY that decides all songwriters wages for the whole country failed you.
Greed (by others) failed you.
You have failed by no metric that I hold dear. Chin up , as we won’t go silently into the night! Together we are strong, their only fear is of us uniting…
My screen name is a metaphor. It represents not only questioning the world we see, but also confronting it. You may not agree, but you should not assume you know my motivations.
I did not blame you for anything. I asked how someone so talented, and so recognized could end up in a position of such need. I did not imply you had done something wrong, but rather I stated that your circumstance could not have been caused by services like iTunes and Spotify. I sell music on both Amazon and iTunes. My songs are on Spotify. Last time I checked, while I suffer from a similar problem as you in terms of exposure(understand I am in NO way comparing my silly little rock band to your body of work), I set the price of my digital media, I get a standard percentage from my sales. So if there is some special deal designed to screw “professional” musicians. I am not aware of it.
I do apologize that you took my post as an attack. It was no such thing. WHY do you not get paid? Because of your label? Distributor? That was my only real question. If you can still play(which I do hope is possible), what stops you from recording your own material and releasing it on your own?
I am not “angry”. I simply do not accept the idea that you or anyone else is powerless against the “system”. I wish you the best, again, I am sorry that you think I was attacking you.
You say that no one is powerless against “the system,” but when people point out that extremely bad practises are being set in stone – practises established by humans, not the “natural” evolution of technology – you shrug and say things can’t be changed.
I don’t know why I keep responding, but you show contempt for art and the people who create it and then turn around and say “hey, I’m a musucian, too!”
Where? Is that so hard a question to answer? Show me the law that states I have to participate in online streaming. Show me the documentation that eliminates the culpability of the record companies in terms of what the artists are getting paid.
And I am not sure why you are responding either. I did no such thing. I showed no contempt for anyone. I am skeptical of the culpability of technology in regards to “professional” musicians to make a living. It is not my fault that neither you nor AudioNomics is confident enough in your position to support it with actual data.
I just looked at a royalty report on some of my music. Minuscule amount. Not even worth thinking about at this point.
Is that Spotify’s fault? You seem to be suggesting the fact that not a lot of people are listening, or that I am not the only artist on the service is relevant.
A very elitist way of thinking is prevalent on this blog. Like you believe your musical talent translates beyond the work you produce. It does not.
If you are going to claim technology is responsible for lower pay of artists, then you dam well better be able to prove exposure, the labels, the publishers and all of the other things involved in being a “professional” musician are out of the way first.
Contempt for art? Absurd.
It has been told to you ad nauseam, angryvillager…in many threads..
look at my post below, as I’m tired of repeating myself.
The record companies get paid by iTunes, amazon, etc. They are the copyright holders now. The publishing of the tunes I write is in theory mine, but this expects fairness by all concerned. After the record companies pay for production, marketing, distribution, and other costs, the artist is the last to get paid. It really is up to the record producer. In my case, I drew some bad cards, I guess. But I started my own label (Red and Blue) so if you buy at my site I get paid as I hold those copyrights.
I don’t know if I can :/ im in Canada and I can’t afford to buy three CDs.
Monkey, don’t worry. Use iTunes. Get me some other time, and just THANKS for even thinking like you do. Thanks for listening and for all the support. Enjoy the music.
From comments in an early post:
“Do you know what your problem is? What the true problem with the industry? With people like you? You always assume the creator has made something of value. That the simple act of creation deserves compensation. The irony? It has never worked like that. So for someone who seems to know a hell of a lot about the industry, you also seem to know very little about how record sales actually work, and have always worked.”
https://illusionofmore.com/support-artists/#comments
And when people have pointed out that people clearly value this stuff enough that pirate sites can charge advertisers based on site hits, you’ve shrugged.
I see nothing “elitist” about asking people to value stuff enough to pay for it.
If i understand your argument, it’s that Ms. Williams has been screwed by her record companies and the internet had nothing to do with it. But from her own experience, and the experience of others, and, yes, the data (I don’t know enough about it, but seriously, the Trichordist has tons of stuff about this) streaming and piracy has hurt many people’s income.
Where I see your contempt for artists is in comments like “get a regular job” because somehow you’re able to make music while doing a regular job. Well, great for you! But there are plenty of people who have been able to make a living on their work for decades who are suddenly being squeezed. The difference is piracy, streaming and filesharing.
And again, to get back to uber, driverless cars, drone delivery… the “regular jobs” are being attacked to. The real elitism is the belief that tech jobs are somehow safe from this, that all those people who planned out their lives one way should have studied a STEM field or whatever.
Seriously, people should just pay for their shit. End of story.
absolutely, Monkey.
You will notice the common thread among SillyCon Valley cons…I mean companies:
they trick an entire population to do essentially free labor (from the point of view of the company), and absolve themselves from any liability, rules, regulations, insurance, ,taxes, overhead,.. essentially no downside, as they don’t have actual employees driving (in the case of ride-share fo example), they sucker the people into flipping the hidden bill for these things. And they sit back and collect money from a website…
wow, they single-handedly got rid of an entire century of worker protections (that people literally DIED to give us) just by coding a website…
(or so they think, the bubble will burst again, but they will have their golden parachutes, the actual workers will be left on the streets)…. this is a familiar story, don’t they teach History in school anymore?
It’s most blatant with uber. Their big innovation is that they have an app. Other than that they’re no different from any othe gypsy cab service.
Laniet talks about this idea that somehow the digital aspect gives stuff that would be condemned as completely unethical if they were done entirely in the “analog world.” His exampe is a study on how to hack pacemakers. He points out that no hacker would have thought of that on their own, nor would they have the capacity to actually carry it out. It’s just creating fear and distrust for no reason.
There were bootleg albums before the internet, and you could have made the argument that it wasn’t “stealing” because the customer didn’t steal a real album by the artist from the store. But it was wrong then and it’s wrong now.
As an aside, I was really disappointed with the Doctorow and Amanda Palmer books. Basially they trot out the same ideas: merch, touring and kickstarters.
Of the three, touring is the most obvious one that’s not scalable. No one can possibly see every band or author whose music or books they download for free. There’s just not enough time or money. Plus, it is difficult or impossible for shy studio geniuses, older artists and artists with kids to tour constantly. I don’t think I’d even want to see Thomas Pynchon speak, except for the novelty factor. To enjoy people’s work and then ask for more of their time seems more than a little unfair.
Merchandizing *seems* harmless, but it has drawbacks, too. First, there’s the fact that some works simply don’t lend themselves to merch. I don’t want a James Ellroy action figure or a Michael Haneke T shirt. PLus, there’s the hidden factor that merch depends on propping up a sytem of cheap manufacturing with soul crushing labor rewarded by slave wages. (and again, it does zippo for songwriters and other people involved in production). Finally, there’s the fact that merchandize has always been easy to bootleg, even moreso now (check out people who find their designs ripped off on etsy). The Beatles received next to nothing from merch in their lifetime as a band.
Kickstarters seem good at first, but I’ve always objected because it seems to reward the ‘popular kids,” the ones who are better at rallying people (e.g. Amanda Palmer). but I realize that another thing has bothered me about it: the best artists in any medium have been those who give people what they want before they know it: Dylan, Hitchcock, Philip K Dick. The trouble with being beholden to “the fans” is that you will conform to their image of you. the best artists want listeners, readers and viewers, not fans.When Dylan went electric, and later when he made John Wesley Harding, he was saying to the listener “I won’t play what you want. I’ll play this and if you like it, great.”
Sorry, this is probably my longest post here, and it really doesn’t have much to do with the main subject.
I guess the moral of the story is: people seen “enjoying” Rights, soon won’t have them!
Rights are a volatile thing that need to be continually fought for.
We’ve seen how quickly worker rights, workplace safety, privacy/4th ammendment, etc etc can be stamped out essentially overnight.
And these types of thing dont just ‘come back’, these are the things revolutions are fought over.
short and sweet summary, beyond that, I’m sure you know how to use a search engine… look up the law for yourself, I’m not your secretary…
http://www.councilofmusiccreators.org/the-consent-decree.html
“the Consent Decrees force ASCAP and BMI to grant a license to use your music to anyone who asks, even if it’s not clear what the user is doing (or is going to do) with your music, or how much (or even if) they’re going to pay for it. That’s right: under the Consent Decrees, just by asking, a user must be given a license.”
.
What you have is the ILLUSION of choice, and I’m sure you’re talking about checkboxes when setting up whatever aggregator you used..
Go ahead, remove your music from non-interactive music streaming sites… ill wait…(but I won’t be holding my breath).
bah, that post was supposed to be under Angryvillager post above:
https://illusionofmore.com/speech-oligarchs/#comment-8695
guess that comment thread is full or something.
So, you get all pissy about consent decrees, etc.. Accuse me of not understanding the industry. Claim you are being robbed, etc. And after all that. All of your complaining and the bottom line in all of this? Other than you acting like a jerk for no particular reason? After all of that. The PRO’s who control virtually all access to performance rights are just as if not more culpable in regards to the “illusion of choice” you mention above. Under the guise of easy distribution, joining with and granting access to them is what truly limits the control over your works.
You are correct. In agreeing to allow ASCAP to manage my royalties, I gave up pretty much any true control I would have had over my music. But I also gained a means by which to track the majority of the ways in which my music is being used. Remember way back when I said you give up control for convenience? Exposure?
The court ruling you keep talking about. The one where you claim that you are not allowed to remove your work from digital services… You kind of gloss over the fact that you are completely free to NOT partner with a PRO, that the ruling is not a forced decree in regards to publishing YOUR work. ASCAP was not permitted offer up performance rights piecemeal. So in the end you are complaining about two very big and very powerful organizations arguing over their bottom lines, not your ability to distribute your work as you see fit.
Should publishers get a rate comparable to record companies? That is not for me to decide. But your whole argument has been disingenuous from the start. No, I am not an expert. But your claims of having no control or power, is ridiculous. NONE of which ultimately has anything to do with streaming technology. YES, absolutely you deserve a fair rate. Which someone with a lot more money and power than you or I will determine. Whether you decide to play in that sandbox, is in fact up to you.
1. Do you have to use a PRO? – No.
2. Do you as a creator have the right to copyright your work? – Yes
3. Can someone legally use your work without consent if you do not sign a distribution/performance deal? – ???
4. How can creators take more control over their work without sacrificing exposure? – ???
Stop being so hostile and have a discussion.
if I sound hostile, it’s because I’m sick of having the exact same conversation every day for years on end, and people with a pissy tone climbing on my back. check your own tone first…
To your actual questions:
1. Yes, actually… but only if you want to get paid…
2. of course..
3. YES! ANY PUBLISHED SONG…
4. We can’t control it now, regardless of exposure…
Leaving out the huge gorilla of unfettered piracy (which as copyright is Federal Law, it is the Feds jurisdictional obligation to deal with it, …not me, some lowly songwriter to police the internet… , but hey… if you want to give me the power, just say the word…)
if I don’t want to do business with Pandora, for example, as I never agreed to their rate, never signed a contract with them, regardless of whether I’m with a PRO* or not, I have NO say in the matter. or Sirius/XM or whomever, This is the same with literally Hundreds of other companies. EVEN IF THEY ARE BREAKING THE LAW BY NOT PAYING THE FORCED on songwriters RATE, or never sent a latter of intent or any of their other obligations, I have ZERO recourse.
(*and you have to be with a PRO If you realistically want to get paid a very substantial portion of a songwriters income.)
Even with Spotify, you can’t get completely off their service.
These are literally bankrupt companies, with horrible business models (if the even have a business model..) that I am forced to do business with.
Spotify is not the music business the same way Walmart isn’t the music business… they are just distributors. And I have little say on who distributes my product, and ZERO say on how much I charge! This is certainly not the land of the free, nor a free market…
..meanwhile the CEOs of these companies are building their 8th vacation mansion…
..and that is for stuff I release under my own name, If someone does a cover song of one of my tunes (which I encourage as that is part of the business) i have no say in who does the cover, or what services they distribute through. It used to be having a charting song being covered by an artist was a very good payday… but that payday is now just pennies as Danny Ek of Spotify (formerly uTorrent) and other SillyCon opportunists sucks all my value out of the equation…. you think the published Spotify rates are bad? divide that again by ten, and look at what the songwriter gets… and that doesn’t even touch co-writes…
If this is the future, I won’t be a part of it…at least with iTunes I can count actual pennies for singles and a buck if I wrote most all the songs on an album, but with streaming, they might as well not even pay anything…
Most of my peers got out years ago, I’m just stubborn and refuse to roll over for the mob.
I know this is long. But it is a summation. And I do hope you will give it a chance and allow me to close out my thoughts.
“if I sound hostile, it’s because I’m sick of having the exact same conversation every day for years on end, and people with a pissy tone climbing on my back.”
Then I would highly recommend you stop talking and start listening.
Here is a sad fact that you seem to want to ignore. No one cares if you make money or not. Not ASCAP, not your peers, not iTunes, Spotify, no one. And it has nothing to do with trying to screw you over, or because they think your music isn’t worth it. Trust me, it is nothing personal. They don’t care, not because they are “evil”, or “greedy”. No, it’s because they are oblivious. You and I aren’t even a spec of sand in this landscape. And that is in no way implying that I am on your level in terms of being a “professional”(I have no idea how good or bad your work may be, it is irrelevant to the discussion regardless), just that in the grand scheme of things, we don’t stand out.
“if I don’t want to do business with Pandora, for example, as I never agreed to their rate, never signed a contract with them, regardless of whether I’m with a PRO* or not, I have NO say in the matter”
Bull. It is the PRO that controls and negotiates those rates. If you signed up with a PRO, you agreed to their terms. And last time I checked those were non-exclusive rights, meaning you are free to do whatever you like on your own, with your music. That’s a fact, don’t give me any pissing and moaning about how you have no choice. Your choice is to not publish your work using a PRO. If you write a song, and don’t go through a PRO bound by the consent decrees, guess what, you can’t be bound by that decree. And no one is forcing you to stay a member. Are you suggesting that Taylor Swift is breaking the law? She just pulled all of her music, angling for a better deal. Probably dealing with them directly as a PRO is pointless for her at this point. So yeah, you are trapped, by your publisher, not Spotify, not Pandora. The terms of the consent decree to keep PRO’s in check and the terms of your agreement with ASCAP are pretty clear.
The Copyright Law gives to the copyright owner (the writer, publisher, etc.) of a work, a number of exclusive rights which are good for a specific number of years. The law also puts certain limits on those rights. The exclusive rights include the right to produce a work in copies and records; the right to prepare derivative works; the right to distribute copies of the work; the right to perform the work; the right to display the work; and most recently, a limited performance right in sound recordings digitally transmitted.
Do you know what that means? It means you are free to do with YOUR work anything you please. Now maybe you aren’t like me. Maybe you don’t control every aspect of your work. OK, I get that. But that is still not a fault of digital distribution.
“but that payday is now just pennies as Danny Ek of Spotify (formerly uTorrent) and other SillyCon opportunists sucks all my value out of the equation…”
No. Your music has been devalued but it has nothing to do with the compensation rate. It is about there being way more choice for the consumer. If there are millions of songs on Spotify, how do they know you were the reason that ad was clicked? How many users can be attributed to your work? How did they do this on radio? There is a reason performance rates are a nominal flat fee. Again, NOTHING to do with someone trying to screw you. They have a business, they have a service, ASCAP negotiates the rates, they will make a deal. None of which is going to change the money you have coming in nearly as much as getting more and more people to listen will.
Records and radio play were always meant to be promotional tools. Always. They started selling them when they realized it was a good way to make some cash and advertise for their artists. As music became more accessible, and profitable. The business shifted to a more sales based model. Performance became and event, and ultimately a way for the artists to make a lot of cash.
The industry has changed a lot in the past 10 years. Problem is, most people either refuse to accept or just don’t understand that you have come full circle. Digital files are now promotional tools, streaming is the new radio and the only hope for people like you is a more exclusive way to get “professional” music. As long as the pool is diluted, no matter what the quality of the work, the value will dissipate.
The problem with that? Nobody cares if you make money or not. Going back to a model where record companies decide who gets heard, exclusively(At least now it is possible to be heard as an independent). Having them control the gate into that paradise where you get enough plays to make a living… I am not sure that is any better.
I will leave you with one last thing. And you can take this as you like.
Streaming, mp3’s, cell phones, music players, CDs… These are all tools. They were not created to steal your money. Spotify is a service, as is iTunes, Facebook, etc. They were not created to steal your money or your information. But that data, you contributing to that landscape as one of millions of grains of sand. That is what they value. Not your music. Not your creativity. You are a number.
Lobby ASCAP and the other PRO’s to push for better parity in terms of plays. For tighter scrutiny in regards to who is in the pool. I agree, there is a difference between “professional” and amateur, but it has nothing to do with sales. Art should speak for itself, and you should not be mixed in with millions of others who have not achieved the same level of proficiency as you. They should not dilute your earnings pool.
Let’s work on that. Being angry at the machine is just pissing into the wind. Exposure for control is fine IMO, but only when that exposure means something. And as it stands right now, with no barrier to entry, it really doesn’t mean squat.
I apologize sincerely if you felt attacked in any of this. I am passionate about my work, and about technology.
Namaste
ive already stated the problem (for me) isn’t the fact that there’s millions of hobbyists and aspiring acts, the problem is streaming rates, and consent decrees (and of course piracy).
IF I were being made obsolete by competition, whether from the millions of amateurs, kitten videos/UGC, or whatever, I would go silently into the night… that isn’t the problem.
The problem is that Streaming is quickly overtaking downloads (or cds) as the preferred ownership vehicle… but the law was written in a time before streaming existed. As you said, radio was originally promotional ..BUT IT WAS PROMO FOR THE PRODUCT, not merch or tours. (in fact tours were loss leader promo for the record.)
(per Congressional law) All a streaming site has to do is give 70% of its revenue (as one option) to be compliant with the law… it doesn’t matter if their total income is twelve cents… in other words, the songwriter and artists are SUBSIDIZING these businesses that have NEVER made a profit, because they DON’T NEED TO. They are just waiting for an IPO to cash out and leave everyone else holding the bag… greedy bastards don’t care who they destroy in their wake.
A.V. – ” Bull. It is the PRO that controls and negotiates those rates.”
Actually, no, it is a single court in New York that decides the rate, and add to that the broadcasting lobbyists made it so the court can’t even look at other agreements to factor in the market rate. ANY “negotiations” on rates are ‘what percent’ of the decree’s rate… in other words, the Consent Decree is an arbitrary CAP on rates.
And you’re wrong, I CANNOT pull my songs, as I’m just the songwriter. I cannot say no (not that I’d want to) to someone doing a cover of my songs, as long as they pay the Statutory Mechanical rate, which as nobody actually buys songs now, but streams them…. yeah… that 9cents per copy went down to .000014 (and no I didn’t add an extra zero)
I don’t want to necessarily go back to the old system, I just want whatever replaces it to be fair, and right now it’s anything but.
Let’s be clear. The current rate was set by ASCAP and Pandora. That rate was apparently based on the RMLC rate. The court ruling you are referring to, merely preserved this rate until then end of the agreed license. On the surface this makes sense. 5 years ago streaming was no where near as popular as it has become. In short, radio was radio, be it traditional or via the internet. The ruling prohibits PRO’s from pulling out of the current license. Which they apparently wanted to use as a bargaining chip for a better rate. All of which makes perfect sense. Streaming has grown, revenues have grown, PRO’s want more money to come their way. Yup. I agree the should, and when the license expires next year I would imagine that is what will happen. All of this information is available via ASCAP, the DOJ, etc.
The rates need to be adjusted. In December they are back in court to do just that. Hopefully ASCAP will be able to come up with something better. So let’s just set that aside.
Now as I am not a songwriter(at least not in the sense that I sell my music separate from the actual recordings my band makes). I am not sure how that will work out. Are you contracted to write something under an initial agreement? If so, I am assuming you work it out to retain royalty/performance rights. But yeah, I can also see that you do not have the same control as the performer. Which I agree, means that you need even more protection from the PRO.
All I have ever been saying is that it is the PRO that negotiates these rates. Yes, the consent decree limits some of their power, but that is not without reason. Are they outdated? Yup. A whole new system needs to be implemented as we move into the future. But I do not think the reasons behind such limitations(consent decree) are without merit. You may disagree. And that i can understand, but I feel it to be a discussion for another time.
In the end, you should get a fair price for your work. What that is, I do not know. Value of creative work is subjective. Yes it has value, but in terms of streaming, is the simple X percentage for a play enough? How does that serve the majority of creators who will never get enough plays to make money? Should everyone get the same rate? Again, there is no easy answer.
The thing is, Angryvillager, is that “the machine” is really the sum total of the actions of humans. Everything – the internet, shipping, manufacturing – everything is made possible by the social contract. And a lot of people think that tech somehow makes that outdated.
I’ve brought her up before, but ani difranco is someone who has never, ever, ever signed with a major record label. She has had a few songs on complations released by major labels, but otherwise she owns all her stuff 100%. And in a time when she would like to be able to slow down and raise her family, she’s being hit by piracy and the “free everything” mentality. And she’s said so, and she still gets pirated.
To listen to people’s complaints and disagree is one thing, but to listen to them and say “that’s the way the ball bounces” is another.
Don’t you think her problem is the same as AudioNomics? Or anyone in a diluted market? If I open a bakery, and I make good, I mean awesome cookies. But very few people actually come to my bakery, how am I supposed to make money? If I decide to sell them in a grocery store, along side mass produced, “good enough” tasting alternatives. How do I set myself apart? Is my inability to stand out the fault of the grocery store? That is the big question I see in all of this. How can someone like AudioNomics retain value in a sea of “good enough”? Doesn’t that have to start with what the publishers and PRO’s are willing to add into the pool? Piracy and streaming are two separate issues. On one hand you have actual theft, a situation where you can only hope the law ends up on your side. On the other you have disproportionate compensation for effort. How do we determine the value of an artists work in a system that is not based on quality but rather availability? Short answer, limit availability. The problem with that is that everyone would have to agree to limit their exposure. And IMO, the PRO’s would have to treat exposure as a commodity and not a by product.
There is no simple way out of this mess, but I do not believe going after technology is ultimately the answer.
To complain about lost revenue is one thing, but to pin it on the last link in the chain while glossing over all of the things in the middle is quite another. Right?
Do you honestly think I don’t want people like Ms. Williams, Audionomics, me, etc. To get paid for our efforts? Of course I do. But we have to be crystal clear as to how that is supposed to happen.
Bollocks. The consumption of the bakeries cookies hasn’t changed. What has happened is that someone has passed the cookies out the back door and is selling them down the street for less than wholesale.
No one is buying the local elementary school’s viola player’s music in preference to the work of Kim Kashkashian’s they have just found a way to get Kim’s work without paying.
No one is comparing apples to oranges either John. We agree, theft is A problem. Hooray! It is not however the ONLY problem with being a musician, filmmaker, baker, etc…
And Monkey, if you are suggesting there is less consumer choice now as opposed to 15 years ago, you are way off base. Less people who can make a living as a musician? Of course. Just like there are less people who can make a living with liberal arts degrees. There are a multitude of reasons for that, and ONE of those reasons is the ability for consumers to pick and choose how they listen and what they buy.
Maybe I am not cutting into the plays for mainstream artists. But the fact that there are so many other musicians, amateur and pro alike, who can live along side the mainstream is not helping the “working” musician stand out from the crowd, either.
Diluted market… yep, that’s why there are less working musicians than there were in 1999.
Where is all this “good enough” content that’s flooding the market? Most people look at amateurs as something they listen to once, then disregard.
and ONE of those reasons is the ability for consumers to pick and choose how they listen and what they buy.
More nonsense. It has nothing to do with picking and choosing, we’ve always done that. We always picked Beetles over Stones, or one genre over another genre. Always have always will, what has happened is that paying is now optional. Second the streaming services are expecting their input to be at near zero cost. Remove a 100,000 songs and they don’t have a viable service. People on the streaming services are mostly listening to the same pop that people listened to 40-30-20 years ago. Nothing has changed as far as that is concerned.
What has changed is that some companies have said “We can make some money if we charge pennies, so long as we pay the creators near to ziltch.” and others have said “We can make money by selling advertizing against content so long as we pay the creators fuck all.”
YouTube is not innovative in any sense. They have nothing without the content. People don’t go there for cat vids. They go there because that is where all the ripped off content is.
“YouTube is not innovative in any sense. They have nothing without the content. People don’t go there for cat vids. They go there because that is where all the ripped off content is.”
If you truly believe that then you are clearly out of touch with the state of digital media and content creation.
Sorry mate don’t see it. All I see is a hosting service for ripped off content.
I’m sorry, Angryvillager, but that makes no sense. It’s not “more choice” that is causing ani diffanco grief. It’s that people aren’t paying for her stuff.
That assumes they would pay if there were no “free” option. This notion that someone who finds a song, downloads it, or listens on a stream, would have been a sale if only there were no way for them to steal.
I agree. People shouldn’t steal music from artists. But sharing music has always been part of the culture. And back in the day, while you could listen to or copy your buddies Metallica album, it was not the same as going out an getting your own. You wanted the same experience he was having. And sometimes, for bands you would listen to, but didn’t necessarily like, you may get a bootleg and let it collect on the floor of your car. People bought the music they saw value in, they did not however only listen to the music they valued enough to buy.
When I hear a song I like, if it is something I feel connected to, I will find a way to get it. If it is available to purchase, I have no problem paying for a copy. If I find a song I like, but don’t really feel the need to have it on demand or in my collection, I will pull it up on whatever, listen and move on. I am not a lost sale for that artist. I will almost always listen to an album if available before I buy. Not because I want to screw the artist, but rather because I don’t want to be duped into buying something that is going to get one or two plays because of not holding my interest.
Point being. Just because millions of people like hearing a song every now and again does not mean they think it is worth buying. But yes, I am on board with you. Pirate sites should be shut down. Regardless of the impact I believe it will have on sales to fringe artists. If that will get people to stop complaining about “lost” sales and focus on how to garner more interest for independent artists, then I am all for it.
You guys have a great weekend. I have a show tonight that I need to get ready for.
good luck with your show.
To reiterate, (and where a lot of the aggravation comes from explaining again) NOBODY says that every pirate copy is a lost sale… We’re saying every lost sale is likely a pirate copy…
Why people insist on this tired 2004 line that “nobody is entitled money just because they made something” is beyond me, as that has NEVER been argued. Please for the sake of my blood pressure, stop repeating this sort of nonsense.
have a nice day!
“That assumes they would pay if there were no “free” option. This notion that someone who finds a song, downloads it, or listens on a stream, would have been a sale if only there were no way for them to steal.”
A lot of the would. She managed to make a living for nearly two decades without a major label. Has the quality of her music declined in the last few years? I doubt it.
You do realize that none of what you say makes sense. For the last 40 years there has been the ability to listen to something before buying, or just on an ad-hoc thing, jukeboxes in pubs and bars, radio, and dedicated music TV shows. Record stores had banks of headphones to allowed you listen in the shop. When I was a kid I couldn’t afford Trout Mask Replica not only was it a double LP but an import as well. I used to go into the local record store a couple of times a week and they’d put a side on for me. Eventually I had enough money to buy it.
There were a whole load of songs growing up that are part of the culture, they still play on the radio. You may not have bought them, but still you heard them enough for them to have become part of your background of sounds.
No one ever complained about that. The amount of consumption of music has increased. The self same number of songs (100-200K) make the bulk of the sales. So what has removed the money out of the industry?
A years or so ago I got 30% of visitors to my site via Google Images, then they changed the way that GIS worked so that visiting the site was optional, the visitor hits from GIS dropped overnight to zero. I’m pretty sure that the consumption of the images didn’t change. In other cases such as music the tech makes paying optional, the consumption of the music doesn’t change all that has changed is that some tech site says hey we have a wheeze whereby we get money for your traffic, the content creator gets nothing, and we can dodge any of the legal aspects for several years.
A.V. – ” Records and radio play were always meant to be promotional tools. …”
No, Records ARE the product. period.
Let me ask you this: you keep saying “exposure”..
might I ask what your end-game is? In other words, let’s say you got all the “exposure” you can handle… now what? Because it seems to me you’ve given away the cow for a glass of milk.
Yeah, records as “promotional tools” would be news to the beatles…
People go nuts when I bring up the beatles because it’s somehow “unfair” to mention the biggesr group ever. But the vast majority of their money came from records sales and music publishing. They were ripped off constantiy with merchandise, and they made more money after they stopped touring. They specifically said they wanted to make the record the performance.
There was nearly 10 months between the end of their last tour and the release of Sgt peppers, five months of which were entirely dedicated to making the album. Imagine an act disappearing from the public for almost a year these days, it would be career suicide,
But really, most good art needs time to contemplate and marinate ideas. The Beatles were able to do that because of royalties.
monkey–
“Cab drivers have a skill that people value, and this is being threatened by uber and soon by self driving cars.”
For the most part, no they don’t.
A small number of cabbies, like London black cab drivers have valuable skills. But for the vast majority, the skill is simply that they know how to drive. It’s not the skill that’s valuable. It’s the convenience. A cab has an edge over mass transit in that it offers a direct, single seat ride between any two points and is flexible enough to change routes (whether you decide to go elsewhere, or in order to get around traffic). And a cab has an edge over private cars in that you, the passenger, don’t have to own it, don’t have to insure and maintain and fuel it, and don’t have to park it. Not needing to park at the destination (or return to the starting point) is also the edge that cabs have over carshares, like Zipcar.
None of these have the first thing to do with the skill of the driver, other than that for the time being someone has to drive the cab. A self-driving cab will likely be superior to a human driven cab, assuming similar levels of competence at driving, because it will make the cab more comfortable, it will allow the cab to seat more people (or be smaller and more fuel efficient), and it will probably reduce the cost somewhat.
Honestly, have you ridden in cabs? The cliche complaints for many decades have been that cabbies drive like maniacs, offer uncomfortable rides, and don’t speak English well. Nowadays I find they’re always talking on their phones and forced to rely on their GPS or their passengers for directions.
Even Uber only improves cabs a little, by making it easier to hail them and easier to pay them. The basic ride experience is about the same; sometimes a little cheaper, but not much. And even these tiny improvements have been heralded as the best thing since sliced bread by actual riders. Once robot cabs become available, we’ll wonder how we ever tolerated human cabbies. And hopefully it’ll lead to a decline in car ownership, which will have numerous benefits. (E.g. less space wasted on parking, fewer resources needing to be used for cars instead of other things, or not being made at all)
“You know who do work awfully hard? The people working in the Amazon warehouses.”
Well, Amazon’s working on cracking that nut. They’re continuing to add automation to reduce the amount of work that humans need to do. For example, now they’ve got robots carrying the shelves to the pickers, rather than having the pickers walk to the shelves. The obvious endgame is to have a fully automated warehousing and distribution system. It’s coming.
“thousands of people out of work (more if you count truck drivers – millions if the same applies to other labor) SHOULD concern you. It should concern everybody.”
Doesn’t concern me. A vast number of people don’t like to work. And a vast number of jobs are, if at all useful, not pleasant. If we can automate jobs away, that’s great. The trick is that all of those people do like to get paid, so we’ll have to continue to do that, whether they work or not. The idea of a guaranteed income has been discussed here before. Spoiler: I’m for it.
“You can’t see how, if you are an older musician facing health problems, that any loss of income could be catastrophic.”
Well shit. I’d guess that folk musicians and disco bands are in the worst-off demographics. We’d better all start wearing bell bottoms again. Of course, a better answer would be to recognize that it’s not just older musicians who have it rough, and that copyright policy isn’t going to get the job done. I sympathize tremendously with Jessica. But getting rid of Pandora isn’t a good solution. After all, I sympathize exactly as much with someone who is in the same dire straits but not an artist. Better to implement a solid welfare state that helps everyone, regardless of whether they can play an instrument.
David–
“You know how many carpenters work because of Broadway alone, how many restaurants stay open, hotels operate, cabbies, hot dog vendors, bartenders?”
Of course, it’s only Broadway. Once upon a time, every big city in the country had numerous theaters with live performances running all the time. And New York, long the biggest city in the country, had more theaters and more shows than it has now. Other forms of entertainment that are not as labor intensive killed theater. There’s a bit of it left, and it is culturally important, but think of how many carpenters and such lost their jobs due to radio, movies, television, and video rental. All those other places survived. My Grandparents lived in New York City when they were young; they had far more live theater they could go see than I could today. And theater districts in smaller cities are shells of what they once were, if they’re still there at all. Live theater is following opera and ballet, becoming something that’s culturally valuable, and used as a sort of display of wealth, but not something that’s actually a good investment on its own merits.
And now of course, movie theaters around the country are on the decline for similar reasons. How many pimply teens making popcorn will be cast out onto the street because giant flatscreens and netflix are more popular? Oh, the humanity!
“but with advertising actually profitable”
Not very much, last I heard. Google does okay by having a bigger slice of an increasingly smaller pie, or at least that’s been my understanding. Sites that sell ad space don’t tend to make much off of it though.
AudioNomics–
“consent decrees writting by a pre-itunes pre-internet saturation Congress”
No, the consent decrees come from the courts. And as the word ‘consent’ indicates, it wasn’t forced on anyone. It was accepted as an alternative to an actual judgment that might’ve been worse. Like a settlement, or a plea bargain. Also remember that they were entered into quite possibly before you were born; generations of musicians have been subject to the effects of the decrees for their whole careers, so why is this suddenly such a big deal now?
“And fucking pieces of shit CEO’s that arbitrarily decided to NOT EVEN PAY THOSE abysmal rates to pre-1972 songs! (instead they don’t pay them at all!)”
Turns out that wasn’t such a bad idea; the recent cases on pre-72 sound recordings indicate that paying the rates would not have provided legal protection to the streaming services. Instead it would just be money flushed down the tubes, since playing the music would’ve left them liable for infringement anyway. Better to stop playing such recordings altogether and to wait for Congress to step in and preempt state copyrights like they should’ve to begin with.
“which as copyright is Federal Law, it is the Feds jurisdictional obligation to deal with it”
No it’s not. The federal government gave you a cause of action; it’s up to you to deal with it. They also can act if they wish to, but in the vast majority of cases they do not; they have higher priorities. And frankly, I’d just as soon not have the government act sua sponte. They don’t for patents, they traditionally didn’t for trademarks. Why should they for copyrights? You have a limited power to police the Internet: You can search for infringers, sue them, and get remedies against them such as injunctive relief and damage awards. Knock yourself out. And if you find that too expensive or time-consuming, well, why do you expect private third parties (e.g. ISPs) or the taxpayer to subsidize you in this way?
“t. And if you find that too expensive or time-consuming, well, why do you expect private third parties (e.g. ISPs) or the taxpayer to subsidize you in this way?”
…says someone who expects a guaranteed income to be the answer to all this.
I give up. All I can say is that if you really think that in a world where people can’t convince people that they deserve a living wage for the work they actually do that the rich will pay all those people their robot butlers have impoverished to do nothing.
please try to leave me out of your future bulk responses. They’re exhausting.
same here
So, I get it now. You guys really just want to complain. You don’t care about discussing actual solutions, your minds are made up and that is that.
@Anonymous could not have been more respectful or clear in that response. Many of your major points were addressed and the crux of your response TLDR?
Well, I wish you guys the best, because the bottom line in all of this. You will either adapt or you won’t. The industry and the means by which music is made and consumed is not going to sit around and wait for you to come on board.
We live in an age where people don’t need to own media. No one needs to own a copy of that movie they just saw, or that hit single. People do not see the difference between one song or another. They do not see the varied effects on the people who produce content.
Maybe in this marketplace, there is no place for art as product.
anon-“[no employment] Doesn’t concern me. A vast number of people don’t like to work. And a vast number of jobs are, if at all useful, not pleasant. ”
Bullshit. People need work for self-value. People are proud of their work. Don’t give me the Right-Wing Fox News line that people, I’m sorry, “takers”, just want a handout…
RE consent decree:
Thing is, at the end of the day, Some of the BIGGEST, RICHEST, AND MOST POWERFUL companies to EVER exist are being “protected” from me… joe songwriter… and that seems fair to you? I have to assume you work ,or have ownership interest with one of these companies to continually stand up for their bs.
RE continue streaming, but stop paying pre72 songs:
Really? it was a good idea to STOP PAYING? how about stop playing, as without falling under federal law, they had no implied license whatsoever… (ie, they are infringing…and they could have either kept paying and people would only argue rates, or negotiate licenses and kept playing… instead they continued to rake in money, but not pay a dime!)
and it is THESE companies that need “protection” from songwriters? after that stunt, they need protection from getting their legs broken.
Sorry, I posted before I finished. It’s my own fault for worrying about style rather than sentence structure.
TLDR: people aren’t paid enough to live on for the work they already do. Good luck getting the general public to go for a guaranteed income.
And a human cabbie is much less likely to drive you past advertisements tailored to your personal profile, and using a human cabbie doesn’t give google the knowledge of where you live.
“Quit calling yourself a user. You’re being used.”
angryvillager: his answer to the (very real) possibility of millions of people unemployed (not just creators but people whose jobs are threatened by automation in general) was more or less “not my problem.”
That’s not respectful.
You keep talking about “solutions.” NAME THEM.
Respectful? Respectful of what? Entitlement? Those people who feel entitled to make a living doing whatever they feel like doing while ignoring the very real financial implications of such decisions? Do you not think that a lot of people would prefer to make music for a living as opposed to work in an office? Be a professional athlete as opposed to a janitor. Audionomics keeps complaining about repeating him/herself in regards to “no one is saying they have value because they create”, yet it sure as heck seems like that is what you are implying. That somehow, creators are special and they don’t have to live with the consequences of their choices.
If you are prolific enough to make a living as a musician then you are not going to starve based on people listening to your music for free. If you are not making enough money from legitimate sales to survive, then you are not prolific enough to be pirated in such a way as would affect your overall viability as a creator.
YES, you are affected by lost sales, YES the fact that people can stream your music cuts into your profits. YES, you should get every penny that is owed to you. No, you are not marketable enough to make your living as an artist. Sorry. You aren’t. No matter how good your music may be, what accolades you have achieved. If the ability to stream your music cuts into your sales enough to affect your livelihood, sadly you need to find another job with more stability.
“But 10 years ago…”
Yup, and 40 years ago I could walk into a steel mill and start working on the spot. I could go into a manufacturing career with little or no training and work my way up, good pay, good benefits.
So yeah, being a working musician has become less viable because of changing technology. Yup, you are 100% correct. But if you honestly think your ability to survive is primarily due to shitty royalty rates, or the fact that people don’t need/want to own music anymore, then I feel sorry for you. I truly do.
The SOLUTION?
Stop relying on sources of income that are subject to the whims of the consumer. The PRO’s will work out their rates, and guess what, you are still going to get pennies on the dollar, are nice and legal based on agreements signed by ASCAP/BMI, etc. Why? Because they don’t care about you. They care that there are half a million of you with no other way to distribute your works. And that the deals they make secure their ability to say when and where THEIR catalog can be heard. Because they know if Pandora or Spotify won’t pay, someone else will. And in the end, no matter what the rate, if you aren’t being heard, you aren’t being heard. No extra percentage points are going to change that.
Set up shop. Sell your own music. Create your own following and start making a living in spite of the ever changing market. If you can’t NOT stream your content, they try to have it work for YOU. And if you can’t make a living as a musician with all of this going on, then do what everyone else should do in that situation, go find something else that will pay the bills.
Streaming is not going anywhere. The value of an MP3 is not going to change. Point the fingers all you like, times have changed. You can either adapt or fall by the wayside. Solution? Adapt. Keep up your fight for fair rates, keep up the fight against piracy, and adapt. Use the tools that are available and try to make it work. That is all you can or should be doing.
again, you’re missing an important fact: this shit is going to affect everybody. *everybody*. Drivers, shippers, even janitors are going to be affected by this race towards automation. And our lawyer’s friend’s solution is a politically impossible system of “Guaranteed income.” That *Is* disrespectful.
And again, there are people who did exactly what you said: they sold their music themselves. And they are still getting screwed by piracy.
“adapt”…
yawn, anyone still working, by definition has been “adapting”.
I find it sickening that the same people who bitched about “corrupt” labels, give these new crop of insanely worse big tech owners a free pass….
These are folk that add zero value, & invest zero money beyond buying a server.
Yes, I won’t do business with them at every opportunity (and you’ll bitch about not having [x] artist on spotify. Guess what, if you use Spotify, you aren’t my customer you are Spotify’s customer… take it up with them.)
Really the last line on this adapt thing was said this week by East Bay Ray of Dead Kennedys. It is simply foolish to argue with math — or punk rockers in many cases. http://observer.com/2014/11/dead-kennedys-east-bay-ray-the-problem-with-youtube/
Monkey & Audionomics–
“please try to leave me out of your future bulk responses. They’re exhausting.”
Sorry, but the logic of the comment posting system here has always eluded me. Anytime I tried to to post a reply only to a particular post, it wound up at the bottom, out of context. Nor am I aware of any way to format these more clearly to help readers.
But I’m still interested in participating in the discussion, so I’m afraid that we’ll all have to put up with it.
Monkey–
“‘well, why do you expect private third parties (e.g. ISPs) or the taxpayer to subsidize you in this way?’
…says someone who expects a guaranteed income to be the answer to all this”
A fair point, but I think there’s a difference between subsidizing the costs of copyright enforcement, which not only inures to a small special interest group in practice, but which inherently involves taking action against the populace, and subsidizing an entire citizenry in a way that doesn’t involve prosecutions against anyone.
“I give up. All I can say is that if you really think that in a world where people can’t convince people that they deserve a living wage for the work they actually do that the rich will pay all those people their robot butlers have impoverished to do nothing.”
Well, as far as I can tell there’s basically three options:
1) Stop or reverse technological progress. This has no real chance of happening, no one could agree where to change it to anyway, and I’m against it.
2) Pursue technologies that tend to put people out of work, but let the benefits of this get captured by the capitalists at the top, with everyone else left to cope or starve. This is what we’re currently doing.
3) Find a way to pursue technological improvements but where the benefits flow to everyone. This is at the heart of my suggestion that we pursue some sort of guaranteed income and higher progressive income and wealth taxes, while allowing automation to run its course.
If you’ve got another idea, by all means, let’s hear it. Just remember that a solution should be general in nature; lots of people have a stake in this without being authors of works with valuable copyrights.
So when you say, “his answer to the (very real) possibility of millions of people unemployed (not just creators but people whose jobs are threatened by automation in general) was more or less ‘not my problem,'” you’re dead wrong. I said that I don’t have a problem with the loss of jobs, provided that the people who lost their jobs did not lose their paychecks. Losing one’s income is the real problem. (And losing income without losing a job would be slavery, which is even worse; clearly it’s not the work half of the equation that we need to try to preserve)
“And our lawyer’s friend’s solution is a politically impossible system of “Guaranteed income.” That *Is* disrespectful.”
You mean “lawyer friend’s.” And politically impossible or not, it looks like the best option. Again, feel free to suggest a better one, but between 1, 2, and 3 above, I’ll push for 3.
“And a human cabbie is much less likely to drive you past advertisements tailored to your personal profile, and using a human cabbie doesn’t give google the knowledge of where you live.”
A human cabbie is very likely to drive the advertisements past you — cabs are like mobile billboards, and have been for years. And now they even have ads inside, on those annoying video screens. And given the vast number of public records that everyone, including Google, has every right to index, I’m sure they know exactly where just about everyone lives.
Audionomics–
“Bullshit. People need work for self-value. People are proud of their work. Don’t give me the Right-Wing Fox News line that people, I’m sorry, “takers”, just want a handout…”
No one would stop them, it just wouldn’t be obligatory in order to avoid being out on the streets. Basically it’s like if you were just barely independently wealthy. Not enough to be rich, but enough to take care of your needs and to not need to work. Would you work? You might if you liked your job. But lots of people don’t like their jobs. They’ll either have to be replaced by people who do like those jobs, by automation, or enticed to stay somehow. Or the job will go undone, and it may be that it wasn’t all that important to begin with, e.g. Golgafrinchan telephone sanitizers.
In my family I’d say that if none of us needed to work, several of us would continue to work at our jobs, others would find other jobs, no longer needing to concern ourselves with the salary, and at least one would retire; another would work for a while to build up a nest egg, but still retire early. I suspect that this sort of range of responses would be common.
“RE consent decree:
Thing is, at the end of the day, Some of the BIGGEST, RICHEST, AND MOST POWERFUL companies to EVER exist are being “protected” from me… joe songwriter”
You appear to be badly misunderstanding the consent decrees then.
First, they don’t protect anyone against a particular songwriter. They protect against ASCAP and BMI. No songwriters are obligated to join either organization, and many songwriters are not members, either because they’re members of a different organization (e.g. SESAC) or not members of any organization at all.
Second, the decrees also protect the members from the organization. Part of ASCAP’s decree prevents ASCAP from requiring that songwriters exclusively license through ASCAP. Instead, members are free to choose to go around ASCAP if they wish. And if they would have been happy with an exclusive license, all they need to do is willingly choose not to grant other licenses, and ASCAP’s non-exclusive license is effectively exclusive. Likewise, ASCAP is no longer permitted to seriously restrict the ability of members to leave the organization.
Third, the limits on ASCAP’s ability to deny licensing is favorable for members, as the goals of the organization’s leadership may differ from the goals of the members, and the former should not be allowed to, for example, refuse to license to licensees that the member is perfectly happy with. (And if the member would prefer to limit licensing, he can leave ASCAP, since it’s not as though the decrees are new and surprising)
Fourth, the decrees are not, in reality, seriously objectionable. We know this by observing that: 1) they’ve been in place for many decades (the first decree dates back to 1941 — 73 years ago!); 2) no one is obligated to join; 3) no member is obligated to stay; and 4) nothing is stopping people who do object from forming new organizations. If songwriters really had a problem with ASCAP, they would leave en masse and form a new organization that better served them. This happened a bit with BMI and SESAC, but not because of the effect of the decrees. For example, ASCAP had some racist elements in it back in the day, and black songwriters found they were more welcome at BMI.
So if you’re upset about the decrees, surely the better way to go would be a mass exodus. Of course, since the actual situation is probably that relatively few people are upset about it, who might have cause to be, an exodus would only rid ASCAP of a handful of cranks; instead they must endeavor to take over, if they’re to succeed.
“RE continue streaming, but stop paying pre72 songs:
Really? it was a good idea to STOP PAYING? ”
No. It was a good idea to stop playing pre-72 music. ‘Playing,’ with an L.
If I had been advising those guys, I would’ve told them to ban all pre-1972 music. Maybe it might be possible to cut individual deals, but the transactional costs of doing so — including making sure that the licensors in such deals had the rights to do so — almost certainly would’ve made it pointless. (Lowering transactional costs for licensing, which therefore encourages licensing, is another good reason to require copyright registration. Just like registering titles to land or vehicles, to enable searching by later buyers.) Plus, it would not have been too bad; it wasn’t until 1974 that rock music achieved perfection, after all.
But, if they decided to play pre-72 music anyway, which apparently they did, only then would I have said that they should not pay. This is because the people that they would be paying for the licenses could not actually provide anything in exchange. Playing the music at all, license or not, is issuing an invitation to be sued. So you may as well keep the money, get sued, and maybe use the money productively in legal defense, settlement, or damage awards, as opposed to flushing the money down the toilet on a sham ‘license,’ and not being able to use it productively when you got sued and needed it.
Still not a good option, but lawyers just advise clients; it’s clients who have to make the actual strategic decisions.
“3) Find a way to pursue technological improvements but where the benefits flow to everyone. This is at the heart of my suggestion that we pursue some sort of guaranteed income and higher progressive income and wealth taxes, while allowing automation to run its course.”
The technology is designed for to make access easier. The issue that I see is a system where popularity drives exposure. This IMO, tends to bury smaller artists in favor of promoted content. One possibility would be to allow users to gain access to more exclusive content by including more diversity in their playlists. I have used a bunch of sites that apply this type of filtering. This could be used as a value add to the user as well as smaller artists.
I still contend that the problem is not streaming. It is not even really piracy. Jessica Williams posted here earlier. She is a brilliant musician with accolades and a lifetime of work/achievement. If someone with THAT much talent and skill, who has been in the business for so many years in unable to grab the attention of more than 231 people on youTube. Then the problem goes deeper than simply a matter of steams and illegal downloads.
Think about that. 50+ albums, played with some of the greatest musicians of all time. Grammy recognition, prestigious career. There are people who make cat videos with more subscribers. Are we really going to accept that no one who loves jazz, or who has heard of her work is using youTube? And that is but one venue. How do we use this technology for exposure. How do we not stand out in a sea of others, but rather be part of the stream. How do we connect people that would absolutely adore her work, with her work?
Or monkey’s work? AudioNomics? The enemy is not technology. Or the companies that use it to make money. The enemy is an unwillingness to USE that technology to your advantage. They are going to do it, why not us?
People are willing to use that technology. Hell, they’ve tried to. But it’s a losing game when you try to sell something that others are offering for free. It’s that simple.
At this point Ms. Williams should not have to rely on “exposure.” And the fact is that the internet can offer her nothing other than whatever sales she can manage. She can’t tour, and jazz fans don’t buy a lot of T shirts. At best the internet can offer her charity at this point.
It’s just mean to claim to people that somehow they’re not doing the right things when they’ve tried it and other people are exploiting them.
“o when you say, “his answer to the (very real) possibility of millions of people unemployed (not just creators but people whose jobs are threatened by automation in general) was more or less ‘not my problem,’” you’re dead wrong. I said that I don’t have a problem with the loss of jobs, provided that the people who lost their jobs did not lose their paychecks. Losing one’s income is the real problem. (And losing income without losing a job would be slavery, which is even worse; clearly it’s not the work half of the equation that we need to try to preserve)
“And our lawyer’s friend’s solution is a politically impossible system of “Guaranteed income.” That *Is* disrespectful.”
You mean “lawyer friend’s.” And politically impossible or not, it looks like the best option. Again, feel free to suggest a better one, but between 1, 2, and 3 above, I’ll push for 3.”
You can push for it all you want, but I really think it’s not going to happen, given the libertarian bent of many big tech companies as well as general contempt for welfare. And frankly, before we get to that point we are much more likely to have a lot more people hurt and dead.
If there can seriously be a word where work is eliminated, that would be great. But the problem is in how we get to that point. As well, I can’t see such a plan working without a lot of people giving up wealth, and we all know how that goes.
But until we get that point, we are at an impasse, and you’re damn right I will fight back against *certain directions* technology is going. Technology is not a force of nature. I have said this before, but we have the power to guide it.
A human cabbie is very likely to drive the advertisements past you — cabs are like mobile billboards, and have been for years. And now they even have ads inside, on those annoying video screens. And given the vast number of public records that everyone, including Google, has every right to index, I’m sure they know exactly where just about everyone lives. ”
Not in any of the cabs I’ve ridden in. Of course I don’t live in a large city.
I happen to like Jaron Lanier’s idea, which is in turn inspired by Ted Nelson’s original vision for hypertext. Any work online would be linked to a master document. That way if someone tries to take a piece out of context or mash it up until it has no meaning, the original will always be available. There would be a system where you get micropayments. That way if, say, Weird Al does a parody of a song the songwriter will always get a little money.
Lanier’s twist is that this could be applied to other “information” rather than just created works. If a cabbie knows an efficent route to Madison Square Garden, he would get a “royalty” every time a Google cab takes somebody there. Is it perfect? I don’t know. I’m sure M will object. but it’s not as if the only soluition is to just let technology run its course.
anonymous- “Sorry, but the logic of the comment posting system here has always eluded me. Anytime I tried to to post a reply only to a particular post, it wound up at the bottom, out of context”
Clearly whatever site blocking/filtering you are using is the culprit. Turn that off, reload the page and give it a whirl.
It’s just annoying to keep your place when referencing a response that is usually longer than the original article.